Read the Episode Transcript...

Naomi Nakamura: Hello, and welcome back to the Live FAB Life Podcast. I'm you're host Naomi Nakamura and today's guest is someone who is no stranger to this show.

In fact, I have deemed her the unofficial guest host of the show because this is her seventh episode joining me.

I'm joined by Katie Leadbetter of Clean Eating with Katie. Katie's a Nutrition Consultant, she's a fellow 21-Day Sugar Detox Coach. She's a member of my Beautycounter team and she is the co-creator of The Cancer Survivors Course which was the topic of Episode 091 which was the last episode that she joined me on.

Today we're talking about something different. As practitioners, Katie and I both get a lot of questions that we often have discussions about and we compare notes on the different things that people ask us about, whether it be through the clients that we work with or through social media and one of the things that we found that comes up pretty often is people have a lot of misconceptions about terms. We're talking about things like eco-friendly versus sustainability versus safer for human safety or things like organic versus pasteurized when it comes to eggs or even things like grain free versus gluten free and these are topics that we find ourselves having to explain over and over again because like I said, these are common terms that many people might not fully understand so we thought, "You know what? Let's just do an episode on it together," so this is really just a conversation between two friends talking about these things. Honestly these are the type of conversations that we have pretty often.

It's almost like we're bringing you behind the scenes and into a glimpse of our personal chats and the things that we talk about. So, I hope you enjoy it and there's a lot of things we reference in this episode that will all be linked to in the show notes over on my website at www.livefablife.com/096 for episode 96. With that, let's get to the show.

Hey Katie, welcome back to the show.

Katie : Thank you for having me again.

Naomi Nakamura: You're like the unofficial co-host, guest host.

Katie Leadbetter: Whoo-hoo. That's a good title.

Naomi Nakamura: Before we dive into tonight's topic, the last time you were on with Alyssa, you were getting ready to launch your cancer survivor's course so give us an update. Is it launched? Is it available?

Katie Leadbetter: It's launched, it's up and running, it's available. It will be evergreen so they can register whenever they get that unfortunate diagnosis or someone in their life does. Yeah, it's going well. Things are going good. We have our first live call scheduled for next week.

Naomi Nakamura: How exciting. It is always available to people to join whenever the time is appropriate for them.

Katie Leadbetter: Yep.

Naomi Nakamura: Congratulations. That's very exciting.

Katie Leadbetter: Thank you.

Naomi Nakamura: Tonight, we are talking about, we're debunking commonly misunderstood terms and we were chatting before we started recording and we aren't really sure where this episode's going to go but this is something that I know you and I have had side conversations about for a very long time about just common terms that people misunderstand that at one point I know I've misunderstood and we don't have all the answers but we definitely just want to bring awareness and have a conversation about it.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and help to encourage other folks listening to be like, well what does this mean when they see something on a product that they're buying because they should be able to know what it means.

Naomi Nakamura: The first one I'm going to dive into is one that was a huge wake up call for me and when I started seeing a functional medicine doctor back in 2013 I was already gluten free, reluctantly dairy free and I still wasn't feeling well and I remember having a really heavy conversation with her in her office and she said, "You know what Naomi, you might have to grain free," and I looked at her and I remember thinking, and saying, "Well, I'm already gluten free." She said, "Honey, it's not the same thing," and I just looked at her so puzzled like, "What do you mean it's not the same thing?" I didn't understand that grain free and gluten free aren't the same thing so do you want to give us some thoughts around that? I have some thoughts but I thought you know what are your thoughts on that?

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, I think a lot of people when they're talking to me about what I eat they definitely are like, "Well what does that mean and what's what?" For gluten free it means that it's free of that specific protein which is most commonly found in wheat but it's also found in bulgur and couscous and there's a handful of different grains that it's found in. I think people also just think wheat free is gluten free and that's also not the same thing because gluten is that protein in a handful of grains.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, and when someone is really not feeling well and is ill, a lot of times a lot of those ingredients are still going to be irritants to the digestive system especially if you have things like, I don't know, like SIBO going on or something else and sometimes it's essential to go grain free and that means giving up rice because rice is a grain and it's giving up those gluten free treats that, let's be honest, they take out the gluten but they put in a lot more sugar just to make it more palatable.

Katie Leadbetter: And to bind it too, sugar is a good binder.

Naomi Nakamura: Yes. I remember when she told me that, I was already eating gluten free steel cut oats for breakfast and I, it was my favorite thing, it still is and I would go to bed at night so excited and looking forward to breakfast the next morning because there's nothing better than gluten free steel cut oats with a whole hunk of almond butter in it. When you go grain free, and a lot of people who have to do the auto immune paleo, no. Auto immune protocol. Sorry, AIP, that requires going grain free and I know that for me that was a real learning curve that I didn't understand there was a difference so I really think that's a mis, not a misnomer but a lot of something that a lot of people maybe don't get at first. I don't know, maybe people do now because this was back in 2013 but I know for me that was a really big ah-ha moment.

Katie Leadbetter: Right, and I think just expanding on what gluten free often is, it's often a rice flour instead as a substitute. Sometimes we'll see things like tapioca or other kind of sticky binding not grains, what are they, flours. There we go.

Naomi Nakamura: Like coconut flour.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, exactly. That would be a grain free option and also gluten free but it's not. It's other often brown rice flour and rice flour are probably the most common ones that I find when I buy a gluten free flour mix or a gluten free good of some kind.

Naomi Nakamura: That's where it gets into understanding what are grains.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, exactly.

Naomi Nakamura: Another thing that going back to about the same time, actually this probably a couple years later, is when I again, working with the same doctor who I actually interviewed in episode two, she talked to me. She was the very first person who brought to my attention that a lot of the personal care products that I was using might be affecting my health because of the endocrine disruptors and I had no idea that the makeup that I was using or the skincare products or my deodorant, any of that could be harmful. Zero clue and I considered myself pretty health conscious at this point. I remember coming home and I've told this story before, I threw out all of my Mac makeup. I didn't use Mac and Urban Decay and Smashbox. Those were the main brands that I used and I had five containers because I am a makeup junkie. I threw it all out and I didn't know what to use.

I thought, well if I go to Sephora, they'll be able to tell me and I remember walking into Sephora and they started talking to me about cruelty free and I at that time I still wasn't as educated about safer beauty but I knew that cruelty free wasn't necessarily what I was looking for whereas cruelty free is great for animals because they aren't products aren't tested on animals, it doesn't mean that it's tested for human safety.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, it doesn't mean that it's safe for humans to wear and not absorb those toxins or be exposed to those toxins. I think it's commonly confused, oh safer. It just means that it's better. Cruelty free kind of in that mindset falls in line but it really is just more of how it's tested and perhaps applied to different animals versus what kinds of ingredients they're using or where they're looking at the ingredients versus that's looking at the testing.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, the ingredients and how the ingredients also react together.

Katie Leadbetter: Yes, definitely.

Naomi Nakamura: I guess along the same lines, you and I both work with Beautycounter now and I've done a number of events and we have these conversations where women and some men too we come together and we have these conversations and we talk about cruelty free and a lot of women will say, "Well I use a lot of eco-friendly beauty products or I use a lot of green beauty products," but again it's not necessarily the same thing.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and I think something I don't think everybody realizes is that lot of these terms are not regulated. Gluten free is definitely regulated because there are people with celiac disease so that one is definitely means something very specific like how much parts per million they can test for in a product but eco-friendly and green beauty or clean beauty even isn't a regulated term. It doesn't have a law defining what this means. What this is, what this isn't and so we don't have that with either of those terms.

Naomi Nakamura: That really goes back to if you look at, there are two different industries. There's the food industry which is very regulated and they've defined what gluten free means, what organic means and what standards food brands and food companies have to meet in order to get those qualifications whereas that hasn't been established in the beauty industry and that's one of the missions of Beautycounter is to, no we advocate when we say we advocate for more health protective laws, that's one of the things we advocate for to be able to have those terms, to have standards established for those terms so that all brands when they say, "Okay, this is going to be cleaner, this is going to be safer," there are standards that have been established that everyone has to meet so everyone's on the same page.

I think there was a really good podcast interview that one of the vice presidents from Beautycounter Lindsey Dahl did talking about that exact same thing and I'll link to it in the show notes. That's something to really understand that we have these terms, even with organic so that's been defining the food industry but when you hear organic in the beauty industry that term hasn't been defined.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, I think they're trying to imply and this may or may not be true but I think they're trying to imply that they're not using pesticides perhaps on the plant ingredients but again it's not really been clearly defined but that's I think was they're trying to allude. A lot of people know that organic means certain things like pesticides and hormone use and antibiotic use but they might not know all of the things because it means several other things for food than just that too.

Naomi Nakamura: Along those lines of organic, there's a lot of other terms that we hear. We talked about eco-friendly and how that's, even beyond the beauty industry we hear that term a lot and you are definitely well more versed in eco-friendly things. I know whenever I'm looking for hey I need a more eco-friendly poop bag for my dog or a trash bag, you're the person that I'm always texting, "Hey, you have a recommendation for this?" We have these terms and I have to be honest with you, I don't even know if I recycle correctly.

Katie Leadbetter: It's different every city and it changes all the time. What used to be true for me here is not true for me anymore so don't feel bad. I don't think they make it easy because there's all these different kinds of plastic also, you know?

Naomi Nakamura: Right and so we have eco-friendly and then we have single use and then we have compostable and then we have green and I literally will stand at Whole Foods and I'm like, "I'm not quite sure what's supposed to go in what spot.

Katie Ledbetter: Yeah, in the trash area.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. They have all the different bins and I'm not sure what's supposed to go in what.

Katie Ledbetter: I think it depends. Some of the Whole Foods have the biodegradable corn based plastic ware but some of them have recycled plastic ware which has been recycled and you can recycle but you would not go in the same bin.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, I was listening to another podcast that I'll link to in the show notes where the person was talking about how even those, what did you just call them? Those corn based things-

Katie Leadbetter: Oh yeah. The biodegradable-

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, even those aren't necessarily the best options because when they biodegrade they still will off gas certain things as opposed to it's the better option would just be single use so buy things that you can use again that you wouldn't throw away that you can use again. For example, I just ordered and I hope it's delivered tomorrow, a Keep cup which is, and I guess it's a travel mug but again, when you're talking about toxins and better for human health, it's made in glass because if you mix heat with hot drinks with plastic that's definitely not a good combination and so the Keep cup is glass but it's also one that you can take with you to, I don't go to Starbucks but you can take it with you to these places and ask them to refill it for you.

Katie Leadbetter: Yes. I will just say you said single use and I think you didn't mean single use you meant reusable.

Naomi Nakamura: Oh. Reusable, yes. Thank you. I get this is all very confusing. One thing to use again, that's what I meant.

Katie Leadbetter: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, eco-friendly and I just looked up the definition. Says, "Not harmful to the environment which is so vague and not regulated and totally what we often call green washing in this space because it's really making you think that it's a better option and it may be but it also may not really be and that's varying levels of people's opinions and what they're valuing in this space because when they install hand dryers, yes, you're not using paper towel waste but you're using electricity which can be generated from coal if it's not from solar or more sustainable places. In some cases that might be better. In other cases it may not be better. Its hard to say this is the hard and fast rule for everything because it's vague like that.

Naomi Nakamura: I know, and we're talking before we started recording but I think it's a good conversation to have here live is that we were talking about a trade off. You had a trade off story, I had a trade off story so you tell your trade off story then I'll tell mine.

Katie Leadbetter: Okay, tell me what my trade off story was? I forget.

Naomi Nakamura: Your Trader Joe's trade off story.

Katie Leadbetter: My Trader Joe's? Oh, the pasture raising. Okay.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah.

Katie Leadbetter: Okay, I was just chatting with somebody on Instagram recently about buying pasture raised eggs versus organic. Trader Joe's now has pasture raised eggs and a person was like, "Oh but they're not organic." I said, "Well, ideally I'd want them to be both but organic just means that they're certified, that the feed is certified organic and that they are not being treated preventatively with antibiotics, they're not being given growth hormones and they're not being given any other things that are of that nature where it's not normal chicken raising behavior." It also should mean that the food is not aradiated but this doesn't really apply to eggs and a couple other things. That organic but that means they could be in cages, they could be living inside. Maybe not in cages but not outdoors like chickens should. Pasture raised means that chickens are outside on pasture like chickens have been for years and they're eating bugs and whatever they find and maybe given some feed as well.

Naomi Nakamura: They're free to roam.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, yeah. They're living like chickens have lived before we messed with things the last 100 years.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, that's your trade off about how are you going to, and every person has to make that decision as to what's going to be best for them.

Katie Leadbetter: Absolutely.

Naomi Nakamura: I know for me one of the big changes that I made in my home, so a couple years ago I took a training course for practitioners like you and I on environmental toxins for human health and it was taught by Laura Adler. She was on episode three of this podcast and she is such a wealth of knowledge and I learned so much from her. She's a good friend of mine and one of the first things I learned in her class was a big source for toxins in the home is the shower curtain because it off gasses. It's plastic. You can tell when you open a brand new shower curtain, you can smell the fumes, right? That's off gassing. That's a really easy switch off you can make. However, of course the safest option would be a cloth shower curtain but this is where we have to be practical because a cloth shower curtain the floor's going to get wet and that's not practical. I don't want to be wiping up my floor every night.

Another option is a vinyl shower curtain and so that's what I've been using but at the same time, it molds easily. Obviously mold's not good for us either and I take it off and I throw it in the washer and it doesn't come out. So I'm like, "Okay, well I'm going to have to get a new one after a year and we just had a conversation, that's not good for the environment. Here I am, now I'm in a quagmire. I'm like, "Do I get one that's mildew resistant and that will last longer but will possibly have off gassing that might be harmful to my health or do I get one that's not going to do that but yet will have to be replaced more often that may not be environmental friendly. I'm not going to say that there's one right or wrong answer. I think each person has to make that decision for themselves and I haven't come to that conclusion yet for myself. I just have to get a new one and I got another one that is vinyl but again, see how long this lasts. Maybe if I wash it more often before it actually needs it it will stay clean? I don't know but this is again, trade offs that we have to make but it's a more informed trade off.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and I think depending on what you're currently dealing with is probably how you make that decision. If you're super sensitive to mold or you've dealt with a lot of mold exposures, maybe you do opt for the one that off gases. You know what I mean because that might be the bigger concern in the moment right now.

Naomi Nakamura: Or if you have a lot of just hormonal disruption you're dealing with, maybe you go for the one that doesn't have the off gassing. I don't know. It's going to be different for everybody. My set up in my bathroom is I don't have a window. Maybe if I did and the circulation was better maybe then the mold wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: I know one term that I just really want to point out because it kind of bugs me when I see it is when people say chemical free. I just want to say that there's no such thing as chemical free.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah. Water's a chemical.

Naomi Nakamura: As humans we are chemicals and chemicals aren't necessarily bad. Yeah, there's plenty of bad chemicals out there but like you said, water is a chemical. We are made up of water so when people say chemical free I'm like, "Oh no. Please don't."

Katie Leadbetter: Right. I think these are all people coming from good places generally speaking. They're trying to do better but they're falling for the marketing terms that are not regulated and are used as we're saying as green washing instead of actual data points that make this a better product than another thing.

Naomi Nakamura: Absolutely. Exactly what you said. Coming from good intentions with the desire to do better but yet maybe the terminology needs to be I guess switched up there.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and I think that's where it's like, do we regulate that? Is that worth governmental regulations or do we just advocate for people to be more informed and to do more research on their own and find this out? I don't know what the best avenue is. Certainly what everybody can do in the meantime is learn more and learn what these terms mean. Do some simple internet research might help you just at least get a start. I always recommend the Environmental Working Group as a great place. They're going to be a great place to help define those terms and give you some safer alternatives for pretty much everything. Food, products, things in your home. All that good stuff.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, as consumers I think this is our responsibility to have some awareness around these things.

Katie Leadbetter: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Naomi Nakamura: One of the other things and it's kind of related to this but a little bit different is I think by now we all know that BPA free is a pretty recognized term and whenever we see something that's BPA free we go for that better option but these brands that create these products they know that now but there's other ingredients or other chemicals that they can substitute whereas yes, something is BP-A free but it might have BP-F or BP-S which might be just as harmful but again those are less well known so while something might be BPA free that doesn't mean that they haven't replaced it with something that is not necessarily safer.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and I think like you said it's a catch thing. Oh, BP-A free. Well, that's awesome but what are they using instead? Like you said it's these things that we haven't studied. We know BPA is harmful but these other ones, what we know so far is that they could be just as harmful if not more. This is what I have read up to this point in time.

Naomi Nakamura: Listen, I know all of this can sound really overwhelming and people are like, "I don't want to know, just tell me," but like I said, there's not going to be one right answer for every person and as a consumer everyone has to do their own due diligence to figure out what's right for them. We are just trying to just bring some awareness on this because these are conversations that you and I have had with people, with clients on social media all the time.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, on a very regular basis is our highly misinformed terms. Their perspective on what this means is generally off at least somewhat.

Naomi Nakamura: There is one term that is becoming more mainstream that I actually really like and that's the term sustainable and I did again, quick internet research and I like this definition of sustainable. It says sustainability looks to protect our natural environment, so great, the environment, human and ecological health, awesome. While driving innovation and not compromising our way of life so practicality. That is something that I think companies that are B corp, I think they really adopt that vision and that approach caring for people, planet as well as profits and I find that to be a lot more, I don't know. I like that approach a lot better because yes, we're caring for the environment but we're also caring for human safety in a way that's practical.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, I think sustainable that's the ultimate goal because the example of some of the, either the hand dryer or the paper towels, when I took my one lone environmental studies class in college the answer was there wasn't one solution for us all, for powering our homes, we're not all going to be able to use the same power in a sustainable way. Places that have wind use wind. Places that have a lot of sun use solar. Places that have a dam nearby or a river or some wave power, they use water to power and then maybe the other people who don't have any of those things, they use the less ideal ones but it's really going to look different for everybody wherever you live and what resources you have available to you. I think sustainability captures that because it's not just, oh solar power. Well, you have to think about what is the energy cost and the maybe e-waste or just toxin waste that is generated in producing those solar panels. Is that better than what we're doing now and is that better long term? You have to look at the bigger picture, what it costs to generate this new better thing. Does it actually make it better in the end?

Naomi Nakamura: That is a great point and kind of related to that same thought process is I have this same conversation when it comes to people for water filters. I have a Berkey and a lot of people, I get messages again, DM's on Instagram a lot, emails saying, "Well what water filter do you use?" I said, "Well I use this, however I have a better option for you. Why don't you go download the water report of your local city or municipal area and see what's in the water and then go and find the water filter that will filter out those things because every water filter's different. For a long time I had a Brita. Well guess what? Brita has BPA and Brita doesn't filter out the heavy metals and so unfortunately for me I rent so for me to go and do, because there's companies that will come and test your water. I forget the links for those. I can put them in the show notes but if you own a home there's a lot of things you can do to test the waters to get a filtration system or a filter that's going to be more suited for your area.

I rent, I'm not going to go through that expensiveness but Berkey's a pretty good option so I use a Berkey but again, if a Berkey doesn't filter out what's in the water in your area then how useful's that going to be to you? Again, a lot of these decisions can be made based upon where you are and what your local and immediate environment is.

Katie Leadbetter: So true. We all have different needs and different areas and like you said, you can get the water report for where you live and find out exactly what you need to be filtering out so that you can make the best decision for you.

Naomi Nakamura: I think one last thing I just want to say about this is that I applaud a lot of these companies that are, they're doing a lot of good things but yet they know they can do better. For example, with Beautycounter we know our products have been made and tested for human safety. However, we know that we have a long ways to go with our packaging and we're making improvements to get there. We understand the sustainability definition that I just found off some random site on the website but when I read it, I was like, "Oh, that's actually what we're trying to do at Beauty Counter is because we're trying to change our packaging, change the bottles that our products come in, change the boxes that they come in and I know in terms of HQ they also look at the way they do business and say, "Do we really need to do this much travel because of the impact it will have on emissions with all the different flying they do around.

I, of course Beautycunter's not the only company that's doing that, they're just the ones that I'm most familiar with but I applaud these companies that are taking these approaches to say, "Hey, we're doing our best but we know we can do better."

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, I think that's where we're going to see the millennials and maybe the, is it the Gen Xers before that?

Naomi Nakamura: No, I'm Gen X. I'm older than a millennial.

Katie Leadbetter: I know, but I'm technically a millennial. I'm an elder millennial, you know?

Naomi Nakamura: Are you really?

Katie Leadbetter: Yes.

Naomi Nakamura: I'm a younger Gen X.

Katie Leadbetter: I think we're going to see those people putting their money in that in the future. It's not going away and I think what I like about Beauty Counter and other companies that are doing this model, it's like the Toms model, the give one get one. It's like I like to buy things for myself but I also like to feel good about my purchases when I'm doing it and so Toms fulfills that in the give one get one. Someone else gets a pair of shoes. Beauty Counter does that in its advocacy work. There are companies that are doing this work and they are thriving. They are a huge sector of this market so I feel like we're going to see this wave of it in the coming years.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. Businesses who are doing business for profit which is perfectly fine, I feel like people try to make guilt around that but doing business for profit in a socially conscious and responsible way. That's where I think B corporation comes in and people don't know what B corporation is, it's a certification that companies have to go through. It's a pretty extensive process where there's all these requirements we have to meet and each company gets a score and they hold that certification for, I don't know if it's a year or two or three years but they have to renew their certification and it's not an easy certification to get. Companies that have it, to me that, it puts them at the forefront of my shopping with my dollars because I know that they've gone through the effort of meeting certain standards to say, "Okay, we are a company that is trying to business in a socially responsible way.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, same here. I'm always looking for companies that are doing that. That's who I prioritize my spending over. There's a couple of things, small businesses being one of them but-

Naomi Nakamura: Local business, yeah.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah. There's a handful of those things that are really the way I try to spend my money but people who are doing good, that's one reason I love Patagonia. They're an awesome company doing really great work, they get my money.

Naomi Nakamura: They're a B corp. There was a couple others. Sometimes I get Instagram DM's saying, "Look, this is a B corp." I'm like, "Awesome. I didn't know they were a B corp." I'm glad the people are starting to recognize that.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, and become more familiar with it and it's a nice seal for the consumer to look for when they're trying to decide between two products they can look for that. We have that with EWG verified product to another thing to look for because we have so many, A decisions to make and things to do, our modern worlds are so busy, we're so overwhelmed and sometimes just grabbing the thing that, the right price and looks to be pretty good and you don't look but having those seals on them can really help consumers make decisions when they're not really sure.

Naomi Nakamura: Right, I do want to say though just because something's a B corp when it comes to food doesn't mean it's a healthier option.

Katie Leadbetter: Yeah, there are definitely-

Naomi Nakamura: I know Ben and Jerry's is a B corp and great for them but if you're trying to do sugar detox they're not approved in the sugar detox.

Katie Leadbetter: Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: Awesome. Anything else to add?

Katie Leadbetter: I don't think so. I think we covered quite a few of the hot button misinformation terms.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, like I said, we don't necessarily have all the options, this is just our thoughts and our viewpoints on it but it's definitely a conversation worth having based upon the questions that you and I have compared that we get over and over again. I hope this has been a helpful conversation that definitely needs to be continued and can be.

Katie Leadbetter: Absolutely.

Naomi Nakamura: Where can people reach out to you and connect with you because you are definitely way more well versed on this than I am.

Katie Leadbetter: I'm most active on Instagram, Clean Eating with Katie but this is my website, Facebook, email, et cetera. All that good stuff.

Naomi Nakamura: Awesome. Thanks again for coming on my unofficial guest host.

Katie Ledbetter: Thanks for having me.