Read the Episode Transcript...

Naomi Nakamura: Hello, my friends, and welcome back to Episode 129 of The Live FAB Life pPdcast. I'm your host, Naomi Nakamura. And back for another episode with me is my friend, Terri Quinn.

Terri was last on the show in Episode 121 that we recorded well before the pandemic hit. And little did we know at the time of recording how timely the topic of that show would be. And that episode was on understanding your priorities and establishing boundaries in the workplace. And I think with most of us unexpectedly working from home, that topic is more important than ever.

Along those lines, Terri's back again, and we're talking a little bit more on that topic, except we're talking about it in terms of some best practices that we have for those of you who are working from home, both from being an employee as well as someone who finds themselves managing people remotely. And it's a very, very different shift. It's a very different dynamic. If you find yourself in this situation, you very well know. Not only as a worker but also as someone who's responsible for managing people.

I think there's a different set of skills and a different way of approaching that. And as someone who has been working from home since 2005 and has had many different stints as a virtual manager, Terri brings so much insight into this topic. So, we had a really, really fantastic conversation. I hope you find it as valuable as Episode 121 did. So, with that, let's get to the show.

Hello, Terri. Welcome back to the show.

Terri Quinn: Hi, Naomi. How you doing?

Naomi Nakamura: I am doing well. The last time you were on, we had such a good response to that episode. And we actually recorded that before the world turned upside down and we find ourselves living in a pandemic. Little did we know that talking about boundaries and how we communicate would be so more timely than what we had even imagined.

Terri Quinn: I know. I think boundaries and priorities in a completely different work-life situation than even what we talked about during that recording, right? It's that much more important now, boundaries and priorities.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, something else that the world finds itself in that is nothing new to you and I but I find that it is something that people are having a really difficult time transitioning to, is being able to telecommute or work from home, or work remotely. We have different names for it, but it's all the same thing. So, today we're talking about telecommuting tips, work from home tips.

But also, as a people manager, as a remote worker people manager. Just as a quick recap, let's have you reintroduce yourself. Tell us who you are and what do you do.

Terri Quinn: Sure thing. So, I'm Terri Quinn. I've been working in the IT industry for over 25 years. I'm also a single mom of three, which ties into this whole conversation of telecommuting as well as the boundaries and prioritization before. But the whole telecommuting thing was directly driven by me raising three girls on my own.

Naomi Nakamura: So, of your 25 years or 25 plus years in the IT industry, how many of those years have you been working from home?

Terri Quinn: It has been 15. So, more than half my time. But I think about it, yeah, more than half my time has been at near or full-time work from home situation. Yeah, I was one of the early ones to adopt that.

Naomi Nakamura: I was going to say, that must have been right when VPN first came out, because how would you work from home without the VPN?

Terri Quinn: Yeah. I was one of the first ones to really adopt that whole home office model on a full-time career basis type of thing. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: So, that would have been what, 2005?

Terri Quinn: Yep. We got it with early 2005 when I really, really went mostly full-time into this model versus mostly in the office. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: And was that a difficult transition at first? Obviously, current situation, people are being forced into this. But that was not forced on you, at least not by current events that was... maybe forced by family situation, but also a personal choice.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, and that's a good point. So, yeah, it was forced in terms of back to the boundary or prioritization, right? At that time, I had to prioritize that single parenthood thing while knowing that my priority was always my children. And so, to balance those two, it was, "Okay, I need to work from home," which still ties into that last podcast where it was marketing yourself to your boss, right? I can deliver all of this for you and better, but my requirement is that I need flexibility and I need to be able to work from home so I can raise my children.

That was my tip, and I had to be able to work from home, because my kids, honestly, were all still single-digit ages. So, it wasn't the option to leave them home alone. It just wasn't a possibility.

Naomi Nakamura: They were in school at that age, right?

Terri Quinn: Yeah, they were all in school. So, if you think about it back in that day, and this even applies to people that don't have children, because it's going to lead into that, what's the structure of your day, right? But it was, "Okay. They're all in elementary. So, I had six hours of work time without children," right? And so, that prioritized for me of really what you do in the six hours when you can commit 100% of your focus to work and what do you do on the days after... for me, it was after 2:00 in the afternoon when my children are not home.

What time of work can I do when I know work isn't getting my full brainpower?

Naomi Nakamura: I'm interested in this, because we work from a global company. So, I was just telling you that I have a call tonight at 7:00 p.m., Pacific Time, which there are people on essential time zone, and I don't think we have anyone on Eastern call tonight, but that's even later for them. So, when you have the six hours, but yet you're working for a global company, how do you manage that?

Terri Quinn: Yeah. Well, it's very easy to not turn on, right? And that's the worst thing you can do, is not turn on. So, there's a few things to think about, right? And we're hearing all in the news, mindfulness is extremely important, right? Take time for yourself, extremely important. When you're a long-term telecommuter like you and I are, things are so ingrained in it, not new. So, I'm not even going to touch upon those best practices that people are talking, because it is important.

What I'm going to touch upon is, what is your best time where you're at full throttle of your brain? I'm great at 5:00 in the morning because I'm such a morning person. Other people are, "My brain turns on at 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. And then, I'm a night owl," right? And it's important to know that power of your brain, when can you give the most of yourself for work that fits in with your lifestyle too?

And if you can drive that flexibility with your bosses in this telecommuting, in that way of, this is what I'm going to be able to give my best four hours or six hours, are you willing to accept this may be flexible or a different time that is different than if we work in the office? That's a great opportunity for everybody. Because I'm more of an early person, and my heart goes out to those people that have to drink the five cups of coffee just to get online at 10:00 in the morning.

Yet, you feel so bad for them. So, this gives you the opportunity that it's possible that, can I adjust it towards my natural time clock? And to your point, we do have 7:00 meetings. I am East Coast. So, I have 10:00 p.m. meetings all the time. So, the answer on those days aren't while I still started 8:00 a.m. and I worked till 11:00, no. If this meeting is at 10:00 at night, I make sure you still stop for dinner. You still stop to take that work.

Maybe you don't start the day till 11:00 in the morning and you get personal stuff done. It's really easy to start at 8:00 in the morning and go till 11:00 at night, and that's the one thing you really don't want to do, because you will take a physical hit. You end up doing that.

Naomi Nakamura: I've heard some of our colleagues who aren't used to work from home in the very early weeks of sheltering in place and living the quarantine life. And it still surprises me a little bit because we have such a flexible work environment in our company, but they were doing exactly that. They're like, "Gosh, I started my day at 6:00 a.m. and before I know, it is 6:00 p.m. and I'm still sitting in the same seat with my pajamas on." And they could feel their body breaking down and I'm like, "Dude, you can't do that."

Terri Quinn: Right.

Naomi Nakamura: If you're meeting at 6:00, that's great. But if it's done at 7:00, get up. Go work out. Take a shower. Get out of your clothes. My neighbor is the same thing. I don't know what company she works for, but it was 11:00 and I had my dog out for a walk, and she had let her dog out. And she just looks so drained. And she was still standing there in her pajamas. And I'm like, "Are you okay?" And she was like, "I just stayed in my pajamas all day." I'm like, "Oh, no. You can't do that. You need to have that whole routine-

Terri Quinn: You do.

Naomi Nakamura: ... of still going through that process." So, obviously, in the 15 years that you've been working from home, things have changed. But in general, how do you structure your day?

Terri Quinn: So, right now, I'll say, because 15 years later, my kids are not dependent on me anymore. Although they're all living here, which is great, my day always starts with not work. So, I don't check my email on my phone before I've gotten out of bed, no. I get up out of bed, and I'm the type of person that follows the sun.

Naomi Nakamura: Which is a very healthy thing to do.

Terri Quinn: Yep, yep. So, I wake up earlier now because it gets lighter in the day. But my day starts with wake up, go downstairs. I take my dogs out for obvious reasons. But then, my big thing is, then I take my golden retriever out for a walk around the park that we have. And then, I come in and I'll feed the pet. I'll get my cup of coffee, maybe eat breakfast. But that usually comes a little later. And for the first 30 to 60 minutes, it is nothing about work, because I don't want to jump right into that stress.

Because I know once I start, sometimes it is afterwards before I get out of that chair. So, the first hour at a minimum, it is not about work. And that's a huge lift for me, because sometimes that's the best part of your day, right? It's starting it off right. A lot of times, Naomi, I won't turn the news on in the morning. It's very tempting, but with all this stuff, you're just waiting for the bad news. I don't like starting my day like that. So, I'm actually a non-news person in the morning.

I will turn on music. I will obviously talk with my children if they've actually woken up by then. But usually, it's that get outside, go for a walk, zero stress. Just enjoy the blessing of the first day, and always that cup of coffee.

Naomi Nakamura: That cup of coffee and eat a meal.

Terri Quinn: And eat a meal, yeah. Yeah, it really starts, get your water ready. Prepare yourself. Get your snacks going, whatever. But to your point, it's not roll out of bed and stay in my pajamas for the whole day. That is probably one of the worst things you can do, because you're tricking your brain into just... that's the path to sadness or depression, or exhaustion, right? You have to get yourself up and go. You have to.

Naomi Nakamura: Literally the example of no boundaries.

Terri Quinn: Right, right. Exactly, right.

Naomi Nakamura: Because there's no separation. So, even though you're in your home working from home, I mean, I live in the Bay Area. I have a very small home that I live in. But at the same time, just the fact that I can shut down my computer or that I get out of my pajamas, that is a transition for me between home and work life. And I may be in a physical space, but there's different rituals that I've created to signal to my brain that it is not work mode and it is now the end of work mode.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, and that's a huge piece. Because when I start working, honestly, I can have anywhere from 8 to 17 video meetings and conference calls in a day, right? It can be crazy. Because with everyone working from home now, there is no watercooler talk. So, there's more and more meetings, and you get that. That's okay. So, you may work hard during the day and not take as many breaks as you know you should. But one thing I will say, especially with the girls from home, is now they will come up between 5:30 and 6:00, and say, "Mom, dinner is ready."

And that's a forced transition for me to say, "It is time for me to check on my family and for us to socialize," right? Have a social dinner together and shut down. Now, whether you go back to work later on with your 7:00 or 8:00 meeting or whatever, one thing that is critically important that I bet 90% of the people that are going to listen to this don't do because it took me forever, is to actually close the laptop.

Naomi Nakamura: I used to have a desk that was an armoire, and it was just the best feeling when my day ended, because it ended at different times or even on that Friday, to shut the doors of that armoire.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. And you won't realize how critically important that is until you do it. Because what you're doing is shutting the door or shutting the laptop, or whatever. You are sending that message to your brain that you are now off the clock. Now, like you said, some days, that may be 8:00 at night, 10:00 at night. And guess what, other days, that's going to be a 4:00 in the afternoon, even 3:00 in the afternoon. And that is great. That's fabulous. Do that. Because if you don't, you're going to end up saying, "Why did I work 12 hours?

Why did I work 14 hours? Why am I doing this?" Well, the answer is because it's always available. So, you need to train yourself to not make it available.

Naomi Nakamura: So, two thoughts of that. Number one, what helps me keep that structure in the day is obviously having a pet, because my dog needs to go out. So, if it wasn't for her, I would not be taking three walks a day, if anything, for a lunch break. So, we take a walk before breakfast. We take a walk at lunch, which then is a reminder to me to actually stop and eat lunch, which then allows me to stop the snacking mid-morning or mid-afternoon when we start to have that 3:00 slump.

And then, of course, the walk before dinner, which is the signal for me to end my day. The other thing that I want to say is that to your point, if you have an 8:00 meeting, take an extra hour during "traditional" with a workday for yourself, and block that time on your calendar. And if somebody tries to schedule you, you have more than... the first time somebody gave me this advice, I was like, "I can't do that." But you have the option to decline a meeting invite.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, that's right.

Naomi Nakamura: And you don't even have to say why. There are people who I work with who will just say, "I have another commitment. I can't make it at this time." They didn't say if it was work-related. They didn't say if it was personal. They just said, "I have another commitment. I can't make this meeting."

Terri Quinn: Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: And I totally respect that boundary. And given that we are all working from home right now, we should all feel comfortable being able to say that. And I find it really ironic is that I know that a lot of friends that I have, they've worked for companies where their employer did not trust them, did not trust, I guess, their workforce to work from home, because they think that people are going to slack off. And sure, I mean, I'm sure that happens.

But in actuality, people are sucked into working longer hours when they work from home.

Terri Quinn: They are. And you bring up a good point there, because we've been working from home so long we don't have those new challenges. But when I think back when I was in the minority of working from home, and this is really important for everyone, you have a remote boss. Right now, every single person, most likely, has a remote boss. So, it is on you, the employee, to make sure your manager knows how much work you're doing.

So, something tidbits that could be useful is you send them that weekly update. Does it sound stupid? Maybe, it doesn't matter. You have to make the assumption, they don't know what you're doing. And it is on you and your responsibility to make sure they do know what you're doing. And if you are doing that full amount of work, they're going to see it. And honestly, if you're not doing the full amount of work because adjusting to a remote situation can be difficult for people, that's going to set a flag up for yourself too.

That, "Oh, maybe I'm actually not putting in all the work of those hours." I don't think that's the majority of the case. But remember, your manager is not going to know what you're doing if you don't tell them. And right now, that over communication is extremely important.

Naomi Nakamura: It really is.

Terri Quinn: Extremely important.

Naomi Nakamura: And I've noticed, like I said, becoming an observer of human behavior, not everyone has the communication skills you just normally expect people to have. And so, if you find that you are someone who has difficulty in communicating, what you just said, Terri, or even communicating what you need or what you are having difficulty with, figure out a way. Read some books. Talk to people. Ask for help. But if you are a remote worker, it is absolutely critical that you do that.

Personally, I have a one-on-one meeting with my manager every week. We have different company-mandated tools that I will admit, sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. To me, we have that two-way communication with our managers. But we also have things like our own version of instant messaging and what not. So, at least, I always know them, where to reach out to people, who are in my leadership team.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. And a couple things that we're thinking about here, communication, right? So, it can be writing in an email. If you're a writer, Word doc, write up the Word document. Then, you can just update it every week. If you're a visual person, create a couple PowerPoint slides or record a video, right? If you want to record a video, send it over. Whatever is your most comfortable way of communicating, embrace that. It shouldn't be challenging.

Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be exactly. And then, just those touches, I've got people that don't even report to me right now that just do a daily touch point with me, just to connect in to make sure that what they're working on aligns with what the priorities are of our bigger project. It's simple, 10-minute touch points are great. If you're the type of person though that is a talker, you have to get used to the fact that your boss is not going to have an hour and a half to talk to you every day, right?

So, that is something you're going to have to curb, right? You can talk to others. But if you're the person that really if you take a look and you're actually talking five hours to different people during the day and you're not getting the work done, you're going to have to figure out how to balance that. And then, another thing you have brought up, Naomi, with your dog, right? You have forced time to take your dog out. People that have younger children, right?

You're going, and you should take that forced lunch hour to eat lunch with them. Great. So, you've got that forced time. Then, we have this set of people that don't have children, who don't have a spouse or a partner, and don't have pets. So, what do you do to break up the day? And I'm going to tell you some things that I did in my six hours when the kids weren't at home was, well, why don't you do the load of dishes at your dishwasher off? Unload your dishwasher.

Do a load of towels, right? Then, go back an hour later, put them in the dryer. Go back two hours later, fold them. So, you can force short household chores into your day, which then forces you to get up and move around, and you physically don't get locked up. I will tell you, the amount of back pain and everything else, so use those things too, right? I mean, listen. Everybody always has to wipe the counter down. Everybody could always use more dusting, right?

And don't tell me that no one has a load of laundry they can do, right? So, it builds that into force separate, right? But that's the key thing, is don't sit there at your computer all the time. And also, don't feel guilty when you take those short breaks. When you worked in the office, you took time out for lunch. You actually took five minutes to go to the restroom.

Naomi Nakamura: As if they'd love your water bowl.

Terri Quinn: And no one looked at you then... right, exactly. No one looked at you like, how dare you get up and walk down the hall? So, you have to incorporate those same things at home too. It's not a problem. You're not guilty if you go put a load of wash in the washing machine. It's okay, right? It's okay to do those things, because you're forcing those breaks that you need, that you physically need and you mentally need.

Naomi Nakamura: I'm laughing, because in the first little while that I worked from home, I would let the dishes pile up, because it's like you walk into the kitchen to get a snack and like many snacks during the day, and the sink would pile up. And there's one thing that I hate more... well, two things. I really hate putting away laundry, but I also hate having to do dishes and clean up the kitchen. And so, I finally like I think after a year, I got to the point where I was like," I need to clean this dish as soon as I'm done eating it."

Or at my lunchtime, do the dishes so that at the end of the day, there's not this huge pile, and it is so gratifying. After you have dinner and you don't have this huge mess, and it's waving for you.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, yeah. And another thing too is with everyone working from home, again, not just if you're not used to it, but even if you are used to it, if you're not on a video call or like we use our social stuff to share documents and stuff all the time, but if you're in a meeting, that doesn't require you to be at your laptop. It's okay to take the call on your cellphone with a headset and move around. You don't have to go outside for a half hour walk to have the wind blowing everywhere. You could, but just move around the house too.

You're still on the meeting. You're still contributing. You're still doing your work, right? But you're allowed to move around while you participate in that conversation.

Naomi Nakamura: I remember the first time, one of our former directors did that. There were a bunch of us on the call and somebody was presenting something, and he was trying to point to a document. And that particular director was like, "You're going to have to forgive me. I'm not on my computer. I just needed to stretch my legs. So, I'm just walking around right now. So, you're going to have to talk me through it, because I'm not on my computer."

And it wasn't even a matter of, let me get back to my desk. It was, I don't see it, walk me through it. And I remember that that was one of the first times I ever heard somebody do that, and I was so taken aback. And I'm like, "Oh, I could do that too."

Terri Quinn: Right. That's right. You can do that too. These little things, and none of this is mentioned on the best part of routine and structure. I have to tell you, I'm not a routine person. I don't do well in doing the same thing every day, in and out. So, that morning routine I have is probably the only fixed thing I do five days a week. Everything else, my hours change. Who am I talking to, change. When I eat lunch is completely different.

I'm more structured on the dinner only because my kids make it for me. I don't make it myself. But I'm not that routine person. So, you put in those other times, and just again, boundaries and priorities. Just because you're at home doesn't mean your boundaries and your priorities are any less important with the work life.

Naomi Nakamura: There's one more thing I want to add to that. I had this conversation with my current manager earlier this week, and she was seeing how it's really challenging for her because she would get up and go to the gym, and then go to the office. And now that we're working from home, and this is not really specific to the pandemic, but just the nature of our business right now is that she's pulled on meetings very early in the morning because they're with international team members. And then, she has the lag in the afternoon.

And then, her meetings go well into the evening. And she's saying she's having a little bit of a hard time finding the time to work out. And she also has kids at home and whatnot. And I said, "Well, I get that, because for many years, all of my mornings are filled with meetings with Europe." And then, the evening is when you hit Asia Pacific. And I said, "That's why I would always go to the gym every day at 3:00 pm."

Of course, before this will happen, I never told anybody, because I just didn't want to have to deal with if there was backlash. But I would block out my calendar every day and I would be at the gym at 3:00. Because number one, that was the quiet time of my day. And number two, that was the lowest traffic time at the gym. So, it was like this lift for me, but I never felt guilty about it. And I've been doing that for almost the entire time that I've worked from home.

And no guilt, because I know that I'm putting in my hours and I'm doing my work.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, yeah. And as far as I'm concerned, I remember I used to do that. It was like, well, who works from home that takes that very clear one hour for lunch, right? Nobody does. You don't. So, why not use it for the gym? Your one hour break is the gym versus sitting down for an hour for lunch in your kitchen. I mean, what are you going to do for an hour in your kitchen, right? You start doing your dishes. A lot of it is removing that guilt.

You don't have to sit at your computer for 10 hours a day straight. And no one is going to expect you to. Now, there's those minorities, and that drives into the managers that do not know how to manage remote employee.

Naomi Nakamura: And that's just what I want us to shift into is, so we've talked about how to be an employee working from home. Now, let's shift a little bit and talk about what it's like to be a manager virtually, to manage people remotely. And you have done this for a long time. In fact, you managed me for the entire time. You're my manager remotely. So, how is that different? There's obviously different dynamics that if someone has not done that, has fallen into this role unexpectedly, there's obviously different dynamics that they may not be aware of or even know how to manage.

Terri Quinn: Yep. So, you're right. I've always been a remote manager, except for one, right? And I've done five or six since managing. And the approach I took was to level the playing field. I always set the meetings up without a conference room, because anyone that is in the office, in your meeting in the conference room, just unconsciously, you're going to forget the people on the phone, because you just don't see them. So, that was one of those things I put in place very early on.

Because if everyone is dialing in and not sitting together, everyone is on the level playing field.

Naomi Nakamura: I never even noticed that, that you did that. Well, I guess on our team no one was really in the office, but I never noticed that.

Terri Quinn: Yep. And so, as we move that forward, that is the situation for everyone today. So, here's a couple things. One, if you're a manager and you're going to have your team meetings, whether it's a project meeting or a team meeting, or meeting with a group on a problem, or whatever the case it may be, make sure you are well-prepared for what you want to cover in that meeting. That is extremely important, because we've just spent all this time talking about making sure you don't overwork yourself.

The last thing that people on your team need is for you to spend an hour meeting with them when you really only need to spend 30 minutes, right? Or you spend an hour with them, yet you didn't cover all the topics because you didn't spend the time to prepare on what you wanted to cover. So, as a manager, very, very, very important to make the most use and have your employees get as much value out of the time you are spending with them.

That's one-on-one. That's team meetings. That's project meetings. I can't tell you how important that is. And also, while you're doing that, it really needs to be in a positive tone, even if you've got a big problem. Focus on, how are we going to resolve this problem together? What are some solutioning we can do? If it's a one-on-one, absolutely, how are you doing? How are you coping? That's extremely important, but don't let it go drill down.

It is not your role to tell the person you're talking to all the problems you're having. That is not your job as a manager, as a friend, sure. But as a manager, it is your job to improve their emotional situation, increase their morale, make them feel valuable. Tell them 10 times more than you would in the office how great work that they're doing and how you appreciate the effort that they are putting in, because all your employees really need to know that they need to know they're safe.

They need to know that they're okay. They need to know that you value them. They need to know that you know how much work they're putting into this. They need to know that you know it's not an ideal situation with whatever you're doing at home and that you still appreciate and are thankful for everything that they're contributing.

Naomi Nakamura: They just want to be seen.

Terri Quinn: That you just want to be seen. You just want to be seen. You want to be recognized. You want to be valued. That's the manager's role. And it's not hard to do if you focus on the person that's on the call or the entire team, right? One thing I will say when you're on a team call, whether it's a project call with your staff or whatever, you always have the people that talk less and the people that talk more. You are going to find that exponentially happens in this remote situation.

So, as a manager, again, it is on you to make sure that talkers don't take all the time. Again, back to that, be prepared. And it is also on you to make sure the quiet people feel included. That doesn't mean forcing them to talk, but it does mean referencing the work that they're doing. It does mean asking them if they have any additional thoughts, even if the answer is no. It is making sure that they are not ignored, right? Everybody needs to be seen.

That's, in my mind, the most critical thing. I see you. I appreciate you. I'm thankful for you, and I'm protecting you. I've got you.

Naomi Nakamura: Especially right now. Now, one thing that I have find has always been a common practice in our company in the 12 years that I've been here, but I know it's not in every company. And one thing that you always were very good at is having one-on-ones, which you just talked about. And so, talk to us a little bit more about having that one-on-one. Because when you and I had on one-on-one, let's face it, we had one-on-ones almost every day, but not every time was it about work?

Terri Quinn: Nope, nope. You're right.

Naomi Nakamura: It was just time to connect and be seen, and be heard.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. And I will say that's really important. And I will tell you, as an introvert, that wasn't always easy for me.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, and you have large teams.

Terri Quinn: And I've had large teams. So, that one-on-one perspective, especially in this remote environment, because as a remote manager, I never saw anyone in person. I never, never did. So, a couple things here. If you're comfortable with video, use video, right? And, Naomi, you and I went for years not wanting to turn the video on.

Naomi Nakamura: We didn't need to.

Terri Quinn: I know. But I think we can tell now, you have that connection when you see the person. So, I would recommend video, unless there's for some reason you just can't do it or the person on the other end just isn't comfortable. That's fine. Because then, we just go back to the days of, remember where we just call each other on the cellphone? So, you're fine. But you're going to know on your team members, right?

Whether it's a team of five, whether it's a team of 20, it doesn't matter. Some people need a daily touchpoint, you give them a daily touchpoint. Some people need a weekly touchpoint, you give them a weekly touchpoint. At no point should you go more than a week at all. So, a week conversation on the phone or on the video, absolutely. Daily touchpoints over IM if you use instant messaging, sometimes that's okay. But you should never go more than a week before you have a one-on-one.

And to your point, Naomi, again back to being prepared, it's, "Hey, let's do a one-on-one to talk about this." Or, "Hey, I just want to do a one-on-one and let's just catch up." So, set that expectations of, "No, this is just me connecting with you to make sure you're okay." Or, "If there's anything I can help you with," versus the, "Let's meet one-on-one on this specific piece of work that we need to cover." That's that stage, but you've got to reach out.

That is on the manager's job to make sure that you're connecting with the employee. It's on the employee's job to make sure they are communicating to let you know what they are doing. So, it is this-

Naomi Nakamura: And we would just have a weekly 30-minute and sufficient.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, and sufficient. And sometimes, we got all of our work done in 10 minutes and spent the next 20 minutes talking. What I will say and what I see in your experiences is don't ever cut your one-on-one short unless the employee needs to cut it short. Because if you as a manager cut it short, you're telling them, "You're not worth my time." And that is not okay, not okay. I would love it, Naomi, if you and I talked about your dog for half an hour because I know how you love your dog.

Naomi Nakamura: We have.

Terri Quinn: We have, right? There's always something for your employee to be able to talk about, even the most quiet ones. And this is about you getting to know them as a person. And if you don't know them as a person because they were the quiet person in the office that you never really noticed because they never spoke up, now is your time to get to know them. Ask them, "Hey, what are your favorite hobbies? What aren't you able to do or what are you doing more of? What are you finding?"

You'll be amazed at the things that people are doing. But that on the manager, that one-on-one connection, that is critical.

Naomi Nakamura: And it's been a couple years since you've been my manager, but we still have our one-on-ones every week. Well, maybe it's not every week, but it's on the calendar. And we understand if one of us has to cancel, but it's still there.

Terri Quinn: We do. And again, as remote managing, it's picking up the phone call. You call your siblings. You call your children. You call your parents. You call your friends. It's the same thing. You're just calling someone that works for you. That's all it is. And as managers, you have a ton of work. Yes, you do. But a part of your day job is managing your people.

Naomi Nakamura: Now, one-

Terri Quinn: And that is not a side project you push away. This becomes your primary project during this difficult time.

Naomi Nakamura: And I think that's something to really, really take to heart. Because in the tech industry, a lot of times we see just because someone's good at their job, they're put into a manager role and they have zero managing skills. And it becomes a very difficult situation. But as a manager, you need to understand that how you behave and how you communicate in every action that you take and every word that you speak has an impact on the person you're managing.

And if that person is not confident in their role, if they don't feel safe in their job, you're going to have a direct impact on their level of stress, on their state of mind, on their wellness, on what the relationship is like in the home with the other family members, and that is a responsibility. And I think managers need to realize that. They need to not take it for granted, not take it lightly but understand the impact.

I have known coworkers. I have known family members. I have known friends who have literally been made physically sick because of angst from their managers. Some had to even go on personal leave, sick leave, because of that really toxic manager-employee relationships. So, especially now when there's so much external stress that we have no control over. As a manager, you have the control. And frankly, the responsibility to ease some of that for the person that you are responsible for.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, yeah. That's absolutely right. And I want to bring up a case which I don't think is a corner case anymore. I think it may be more frequent. We're talking about it's okay to take time during the day. It's okay to stagger your work hours. As a manager, one of the best things you can do for each employee is to say, "What's the best way for you to manage your work hours right now?" Or, "Do you need to take time off during the day? What do you need? Because I am happy to support you.

It is not an issue for you to use flexible hours. It is not a problem if you have to work during the night. It is not a problem. What can I do for you? And how do we make this work for you?" I will tell you, 50% of your employees are not comfortable asking you that question themselves directly. So, you ask them the question, "How can we make this work the best for you so that we can lower your stress with everything else going on?"

And if you figured that out with your employee, 90%, or maybe even higher, they're going to give you a higher productivity than before.

Naomi Nakamura: And you'll become that much more revered. I mean, even in our own organization, we see our executive leadership team holding weekly meetings with the entire company. I mean, this is like 80,000 employees. They never did that before this happened.

Terri Quinn: Yep.

Naomi Nakamura: But guess what? Now, our CEO is so revered in a way that I have never... and he was well-liked before this happened. But the fact that he is doing this now is... I mean, the comments that I see, he is so revered by the employees. That is amazing.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. And you know what? It's going to come up with all these new ideas, right? You're going to find one person. You know what? They really needed to take 1:00 to 2:00 off in the afternoon, but they were afraid to ask you before. Well, as we go back to whatever the reopening of the workplace is, you know what? It's okay for that person to keep their 1:00 to 2:00 p.m. hour off, and you're going to get more out of them. So, all this stuff doesn't necessarily need to be temporary.

I think a lot of these things as we find employees blossom as workers that you're going to keep those things going on after people could start going into the office. You're even going to find some that actually produce so much better at home, you're going to want to offer them the ability to stay working at home, right? Because you just get more from them. As an employee, you're going to figure out what works and what doesn't, right?

And what you then want to ask for, because it's lower stress, yet you're producing more. So, it's going to be interesting how all this turns out a lot of learning, both good and bad.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, I think it's the opportunity to have someone be enthused about doing something versus being compelled.

Terri Quinn: Yes.

Naomi Nakamura: One of the things you did really well, even though we had a 100% remote team all over the country, you really foster a sense of pride and an identity, and that we were a team, and we were unified.

Terri Quinn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Naomi Nakamura: I can think of different ways from my perspective that you did that. It's like you always included us in annual and quarterly planning meetings. You included us into decisions of what was going to be our team's focus and priorities. But maybe for some things that are less obvious to my eye, how did you do that?

Terri Quinn: So, I took the approach of, if you're part of the team, then you should be a part of the team decision. And you should be part of the team input. And I've raised my children that way too. That's just a philosophy I've had. I've never been that autocratic, right? Because you get great ideas when you actually ask. And you understand what employees are passionate about when you give them a voice, right? So, in this remote environment, pulling people in to say, "What do we think about this?

What do you guys think the priority should be of these projects? Who do you think should be working together on this?" And let them make the call. Let them make the decisions. Wherever you can to give them the empowerment to make the decisions, like one thing I already always did, Naomi, is I had you all set your own timeline, your own deadline, right? I never once gave you a deadline or maybe once or twice, but you owned it, right. You owned the deadline. So, when your employee-

Naomi Nakamura: Or I set the deadlines for other people.

Terri Quinn: Or you set the deadline for other people, right.

Naomi Nakamura: I always got my end. It was never, "You need to get this done." I'm like, "How about this date?" And I had them verbally commit. And if they committed without expressing their concerns or their apprehensions, and that was on them, because they had every opportunity to speak up.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. And what you do is by them owning the deadline, in many cases, they're going to say, "Yeah, I can meet that." And they're going to drive to meet that. Because then, if they can't meet it, one, they can't complain because someone else gave them the deadline, right? But it's on you to say, "Okay, you set yourself this deadline. How are you doing on that? Do you need to adjust it or are you okay?" And when they meet the deadline, it gives them that sense of pride too.

So, that was part of that whole... that team thing. But it's really around where you can let the team make the decision and participate in the strategy, and participate in what we're doing. You do that. Now, another thing that I used to do too, and this is completely up to the managers individually, because it might be out of your pocket, is sending people little recognition, whether it was a bonus, or before I used to send people just like popcorn tins or cookie tins, or whatever to just say, "Hey, I'm thinking of you."

Now, I'm a very insensitive introvert. So, for me to do that was a big deal for me, right? But for $20 to send them something, an Amazon gift card even if you don't want to take the chance of sending them something they don't like. But just that little, "Hey, I'm thinking about you, I hope you can enjoy this. I hope you can do something with this," goes a tremendously long way in terms of having them. Again, we gelled as a team and we had very diverse personalities on the team.

But you ended up sharing more of yourself and sharing that respect through that diversity.

Naomi Nakamura: Very true. And we really had an identity that we were a team. And we may not necessarily have really liked each other personally, but we still have that identity that we were a team, and we were all in this together.

Terri Quinn: We were. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: Now, one thing I want to say is that we're fortunate that our company has a system in place where we can reward each other with those rewards. We can give those, and you have peer-to-peer, not just manager to employee. So, if you were in a company that has a program like that, make sure you're taking advantage of that, because that's not out of your own pocket. Your company has said, "We want you to do this. We have funded it." So, if you have that available to you, make sure you're using it.

Because even that little $25 amazon gift card goes a long way. I just won one couple weeks ago because we had a team game night, and I happened to win. And then I thought, "Oh, nice, I won the game." But then, I got this Amazon gift card showed up in my inbox, and I was so happy.

Terri Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just those little things to lift them up, right? Just those positive things and just saying, "Hey, I'm thinking of you, and I appreciate you." It goes a long way, especially now because so many people outside with all the stress of having kids home all the time, not being able to go out especially if you're an extrovert. I feel so bad for the extroverts. Or you're living with your partner, spouse 24/7. Now, that's not easy on anyone.

Everybody needs that positive injection from somewhere every day. And the managers, that's on you. As an employee, that's on you to reach out to your peers. It's not just manager reaching out to you. Especially if you're an extrovert, use your skills and reach out to all your team members and your extended team members. Everybody needs that little dose of morale boost. Everybody does.

Naomi Nakamura: I find myself so fortunate to work for the organization that we do, because I feel like we've had this culture long before this pandemic came into place.

Terri Quinn: Yeah, yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: So, well, thank you so much for coming. I always love talking to you. I feel like you always have so much to offer. But I feel like this is a really good conversation that I think a lot of people can learn a few things from. So, thank you for your time.

Terri Quinn: Sure. Sure thing. And I will see you on video again next week on our one-on-one.