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Naomi Nakamura: You're listening to the Live Fab Life podcast. Episode 061.

When we look for the root causes of different illnesses, and even skin issues and things like acne or eczema or even psoriasis, we always want to look at one's diet, what their gut health is like, what kind of toxins they're being exposed to. And we also want to look at the root cause, of all the root causes, stress.

Now I talk a lot about all the different kinds of stressors that our bodies go through, but there's also many different ways that we can address those things. We can avoid foods that cause inflammation. We can avoid using products with harmful ingredients.

But when we typically think of what to do when we need stress relief, many of us head straight to the spa for a massage, am I right? I mean, I have a massage appointment coming up in a few days that I'm counting down the days to.

But there are other types of body work that we can also do. We can see our chiropractor. We can see an acupuncturist. We can have some reiki done on us.

And we're today we're gonna learn about another kind of body work modality called CranialSacral Therapy. And joining me to teach us about it is my friend Mindy Totten. Mindy is a CranialSacral Therapist who's been doing this work for the past 15 years.

And up until our interview, I really didn't know what CranialSacral Therapy was, so we're gonna learn about it together!

So in our conversation, you're going to hear Mindy share how she went from being an English and humanities teacher to becoming a cranial sacro therapist. She's gonna share what exactly it is, and how it's different from other types of body work. She's also gonna tell us who it's best for and how exactly it works. And even how to go about finding a legit cranial sacral therapist in our neck of the woods, in our own neighborhoods. And then what to expect in your first appointment.

Mindy has so much experience working in this field that she's recently become a mentor for other body work therapists. So if you're someone who does this kind of work, you definitely want to check Mindy out.

Her patients, her clients, her friends, and her fans call her the real deal. And she's known for being a cross between Ellen DeGeneres and Yoda. When she's not working, you can find her doing home renovations on her beach house in North Carolina. Hanging out with her coon hound George or binge watching episodes of Outlander. And like I said, I had no idea what cranial sacral therapy was, so I found my conversation with Mindy very enlightening. And I hope you do too. So let's get to the show.

Welcome to The Live Fab Life Podcast, where we have real and honest conversations from a bigger, functional perspective on health and dealing with the pressures of living in a fast paced world. I know you're busy, so I won't take all day. Kick back for a few minutes, and get today's on the go tips and practical solutions for everyday healthy living. I'm your host, Naomi Nakamura, a holistic health coach and safer beauty advocate based in the San Francisco Bay area. Let's get started.

Hi Mindy! Welcome to the show.

Mindy Totten: Hey, Naomi. Thank you so much for having me.

Naomi Nakamura: I have been looking forward to our conversation for weeks now 'cause I find what you do just so interesting 'cause I don't ... It sounds amazing, but I don't really know what it is. So why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what it is that you do.

Mindy Totten: I will. It's funny because on my web page I have one of my headers across the page is cranial sacral therapy, what the heck is it? And other frequently asked questions. So I totally get that. So I'm Mindy Totten, and I am a cranial sacral therapist in Wilmington, North Carolina, which is right on the coast of North Carolina. And for years I've been, for about 15 years now I've been a cranial sacral therapist. And I've been making a pivot recently so that I'm helping other body work therapists with the business side of their practice. But I got into this work because my background actually is as an English teacher. So I used to be an English and humanities teacher. And I taught everywhere from sixth grade to college level folks. And I taught in the Washington, DC area where I was born and raised. And then my husband and I ... This sounds so goofy. I promise I won't go on and on and on ... But this is getting to how I started cranial sacral therapy.

My husband and I saw all of our friends getting a mortgage, buying houses, having kids. And we had just gotten married. We said, "Is this what we want to do?" And so we did something kind of crazy. And we sold everything that we owned, and we both quit our jobs. And we said, whoever gets a job first someplace, that's where we're gonna go. And so he worked at USA Today at the time, and he applied to all these newspapers. And I applied to these overseas schools. So we ended up going to Berlin first for two years. And then we went further abroad to Istanbul for three. And then Singapore for three. So we were living in Singapore and I was teaching at a place called the United World College of Southeast Asia. And I got really sick. And we'll come back to this a little bit 'cause it really connects with the work that you're doing, which I think is so terrific for people.

I got really sick, and at the time ... I don't know if you're ever experienced that. But at the time, if something wasn't working for me, I was just gonna do it harder. You know? So it wasn't like just step back and take a moment and see what's happening in your life. It was like, push harder. Push harder. So I got sicker and sicker. And nothing that was western medicine did was really helping me with my symptoms. So somebody suggested that I go to a chiropractor, which I thought at the time was the most outrageous thing that anybody could ever suggest. Like a ... Just so weird. And so bizarre.

Naomi Nakamura: That's so funny! I was just at my chiropractor's this morning.

Mindy Totten: I know ... Now it's so accepted and run of the mill. At the time, I was like, oh, this is really wacky. I don't know about this. But like so many people, nothing else was helping. I was desperate. So I went to this chiropractor, and she said, "I think what you need is cranial sacral therapy."

Naomi Nakamura: Well let's back it up a little bit. What was your sickness? What were you feeling at the time?

Mindy Totten: Yeah. So I told her that she was crazy because I didn't need a head rub because all of my pain was in the pelvic diaphragm area. So I was having kind of mystery pain. And I know that a lot of your listeners are women, so I know that I'm not alone in this. I would go to the doctor, and they would just kind of discount me. Just kind of metaphorically kind of pat me on the head and say, "Well, we can't find anything. So you must be imagining it. Or making it up." They didn't say that, but that was the real feeling that I got. Have you ever experienced ...

Naomi Nakamura: Yes. I've experienced that. I've also brought concerns to doctors where they either looked at me like I was crazy or how dare I try and I guess challenge their expertise. But I was just speaking to a woman last night who was having her own health issues. And this is same thing. You know, goes to see the doctor, and they're just like, "You're okay." But you know, we know when we're not okay.

Mindy Totten: Exactly. And that's what it kept coming back to is this is my body. And I'm in pain. And nobody's helping me. And I will say at the time, I was very different than the enlightened person you see before you now. I just was like, "Give me a pill and let me take it and so I can feel better." And none of the pharmaceuticals were working. So I was like, "Okay. I've got to go deeper." I mean, now I look back on it and it's just part of the journey, right? At the time, I was so frustrated and so angry. And it was just exhausting to be in chronic pain. I'm sure that some of your listeners know that. So I went to this cranial sacral therapist.

Naomi Nakamura: Who was different than your chiropractor?

Mindy Totten: Yes. Yes.

Naomi Nakamura: Okay.

Mindy Totten: And I didn't really know what to expect. And it's a very, very gentle therapy, which we'll get into in a little bit. But I kind of had one eye open during the entire session. I was like, "What are you doing? You're not even touching me." I was so used to being poked and prodded and stuck. You know, it's just this very, very gentle, subtle body work. So about half way through, I said, "You know, Mindy. You've already paid for this. You're here. Just relax." And so I kind of leaned into it a little bit. And at the end of the hour, I sat up and I realized that something had shifted. It wasn't as if, oh, miraculous cure. I have no pain anymore. But something was different in my body. I'm very, very analytical.

So I wanted to know what was going on exactly. So I started researching, and that session, that cranial sacro therapy really helped me to turn a corner. So there were a lot of other things I did. Nutritional things, moving my body, meditation. A lot of different things. But that was really the catalyst for helping me to heal. And so when I got out of teaching, which was a couple years later. I said, "I really want to do this thing." And so that's when I went to school and started studying to become a cranial sacral therapist.

Naomi Nakamura: That's so interesting. I didn't know that about you. So what exactly is cranial sacral therapy? Because you keep using body work. And when of think of body work, I think massage. I get a massage every month. You know, so what exactly is it?

Mindy Totten: Yeah. So it's a type of body work. So it's a particular modality. So massage might be a modality and Swedish massage. And trigger point therapy, those are all different modalities. And cranial sacral therapy is a modality. In a nutshell, you know, they always tell you to come up with an elevator speech. There's not really a good one for cranial sacral therapy. But in a nutshell, you are working with the central nervous system. So we've very, very gently balance the tissues and the fluids around the brain and spinal cord. So okay. So who does that help? Well that helps people with migraines and headaches. That helps people with chronic pain, like I had. The cranium, most people get that part. That's the head. And then the sacral part. The sacrum is that triangular shape at the bottom of your spine. And so if you think of it. That's really ground zero. That's as deep as you can go.

And the weight that you use in cranial sacral therapy, the amount of pressure, is no more than a nickel. So it's five grams of pressure. So it's very, very, very gentle. And I remember when I was first learning. People would say, "Oh, I want deep tissue. Or I want this and that." And I had a mentor who said, "Mindy, cranial sacral therapy is the deepest work that you'll ever do because you're in the central nervous system." So I mean, that's ground zero. That's what we feel and how we move and how we relate to the world. Did that answer it, or should I come up with a better elevator speech?

Naomi Nakamura: No, that's so interesting because I have recently ... And I say recently, in the past probably two years or so. I've been not on a regular basis, but going to see a reiki master. Someone who does reiki. And so I imagine that would be like a different type of modality. In reiki, they don't actually touch your body. At least, my reiki master doesn't. But in cranial sacral therapy, so you're actually touching the body but in a very light way.

Mindy Totten: Exactly, Naomi. And so many people say, "Oh, it's like reiki." And it's very, very similar, but cranial sacral therapy is grounded in the tissues, particularly the fascia, which I know that your listeners know about. So the fascia's the connective tissue in the body that surrounds all of our organs, our bones. Even on a cellular level we have fascia. So using the fascia in the body, that connective tissue, we release restrictions that are in the body that are keeping your central nervous system from operating at its optimum. So you're exactly right. So while it may have an energetic component, the focus is always on the tissues. And sometimes when tissues release ... Have you ever heard the phrase, the issues are in the tissue?

Naomi Nakamura: I haven't, but tell me more!

Mindy Totten: That's a good one, isn't it? So sometimes when ... And you may have experienced this in reiki or massage or other modalities as well. Sometimes when the tissues are released, it opens up emotions and things can kind of bubble up into the surface into our awareness. So there is an energetic component, an emotional component. But it always goes back to, what am I feeling in my hands? What's going on in the tissues in the body?

Naomi Nakamura: I think for many of us, we grew up believing that our emotions and our physical well beings are two very separate things. Right? And I think are current healthcare system has supported that whole belief, I guess. Or approach. But what you're talking about is really how these two things are physiologically connected.

Mindy Totten: Yeah, yeah. And I had the same thing too. When I was saying, "I don't need a head rub. It's in my pelvis." But everything is connected. Everything's connected through the fascia, and in the same way, emotions and also what we put into our bodies. It all affects our wellness. And I'm using wellness as a really broad and general term. You know, after a cranial sacral session, I'll often see people when they come back out into my waiting room, and I'm talking with them afterwards, there's a clarity in their eyes. I mean it's a physical change from an hour before. They're not as cloudy. Their eyes are more open. It's a physical change. And it's just this very, very, very gentle pressure. So you know, what's that? Right?

Naomi Nakamura: So let me ask you this. Who are the type of people who typically go to see a cranial sacral therapist? Who is this modality best for? And as a follow up to that, when you're talking about the fascia getting wound up and it needs to be released, what causes that to happen?

Mindy Totten: The short answer is cranial sacral therapy's for everyone, right? I mean, does everyone like it and enjoy it? No. Because a lot of people are like, "What are you doing? You're hardly touching me." And some people are not comfortable being still and going deep. And that's perfectly valid and fine. And there's some times that I just want a really good massage on my shoulders. You know, I don't want to go deeper than that. Different cranial sacral therapists specialize in different areas. So I specialize in chronic pain. So I work with lots of folks with migraines and other headaches. Chronic conditions like Lyme disease, fibromyalgia, MS. Work with folks with MS a lot. There are people specialize with pediatrics, working with kids. And they've seen some just terrific results with children on the autistic spectrum, children with learning disabilities.

Of course right, if we all got a cranial sacral session right after we were born, our lives would be so much better, right? 'Cause going through the trauma of being born and then our heads are all munched up. And so babies often get ... I don't even call it an adjustment. A real short treatment, just to make everything is balanced out. So it can help everybody. But it might not be everyone's favorite therapy. And then I've already forgotten the second part of the question.

Naomi Nakamura: When you talk about fascia needing to be released, what makes are fascia become so tight to hold on to things? Mindy Totten: Life. Right? I mean, sitting at the computer like we do all the time. If you think about ... This is the way I like to describe fascia to folks. If you think about lasagna when it comes out of the oven. All those little layers, because fascia is lined up in layers. And it's all juicy and springy and beautiful. But if you leave it out on the counter, and there's not much movement in there, it starts to harden up. And if you come back the next morning, it's really glomped into a big bubble of hard gunk. And that's what fascia does as well. So if anytime that we do repetitive motions a lot. Whether it's at the computer or driving.

Naomi Nakamura: Or running.

Mindy Totten: Running. Or just anything that you can do that ... Like yoga or stretching or opening. Movement is all really healthy for fascia being stagnant and stuck is going to start to throw things off. So often people start to have problems with their fascia when there's an injury. So maybe you fall on the ice and you hit your tail bone, but you start getting really bad headaches. And that's because that pain is transferring up through the fascia.

Naomi Nakamura: It's really interesting you say that. About eight years ago, I had just gotten done running a half marathon, and I had some hamstring issues. I also had numbness in my feet during the entire race. But it was really the pain in my hamstring area, and in my side that was really bothering me. And so that's what compelled me. That was the catalyst moment for me going to see a chiropractor, who I now see every three weeks for the past eight and a half years. But she introduced me to fascia because she also practices ART, which I'm having a blank moment about what ... Active Release Technique, which I would guess is another modality like cranial sacral therapy.

But my point with that is she described fascia very much like you did, and she said, "You know, when you're moving, when you're running." Because that's what I was doing. She goes, "Your fascia's loose. And then when you stop it hardens up and depending on how that happens, it can create adhesions, which think of it like bruising" And so when she was explaining to me what active release therapy is, it is going in and trying to release some of those adhesions in the fascia. But this is just another way of doing fascia work.

Mindy Totten: Right. And so in cranial sacral therapy, we often have a hand on top, and then a half underneath the area. And just sink really slowly and gently into the area. Because fascia responds to heat, and longer, softer movements. So whereas your chiropractor may be doing another technique to kind of adjust it or make it release, cranial sacral therapy goes very, very slowly and lets things open up and shift and change. And you've probably experienced in your work with her that once one area of the body releases, you kind of get this chain reaction where the rest of the body ... All of a sudden, you're like, "Wait! What's going on on this side of my body?" So the fact that you keep going every three weeks is so great for you and your health.

Naomi Nakamura: And that's exactly what we did this morning. She's like, "Okay, try it on this side. Now see what happens on the other side. And it was that constant adjust, let's see how things balance out.

Mindy Totten: Right, right. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: So I super want to try cranial sacral therapy for myself.

Mindy Totten: You totally should!

Naomi Nakamura: So you are in North Carolina, I am in California. How do I go about finding one, and finding one who's legit?

Mindy Totten: Yeah. That's a great question. So there's no technical cranial sacral therapist designation. So you have to be careful because to practice cranial sacral therapy, the only thing that you need is a license to touch. So that means a massage therapist or an occupational therapist or a physical therapist, a doctor, a dentist, a nurse. Anyone who's licensed to touch you can take cranial sacral therapy classes and practice that. So there are wonderful, marvelous people all over the world who've only taken one cranial sacral therapy class and are probably doing beautiful, wonderful work. If you want to find someone with a little more experience, then you're looking for someone who's certified in cranial sacral therapy. And so you have to take a certain number of classes, and after you've done that successfully, then you apply for certification. And it's an essay exam, an objective exam, and then a practical, hands on exam. So you really have to know what you're doing. To be able to become certified in cranial sacral therapy.

So after you do that, there's a second level of certification. So if you're really looking for someone who's been in it a while, who knows what they're doing, who has experience with case studies and presentations and writing articles. That's called diplomate certification. And you can find out that out because the person after their name, it'll say CST. And then dash D. That's kind of the highest level. Sort of a PhD I guess in cranial sacral therapy. So to find these folks, you can go online to upledger.com. And I'll do the link in the show notes. And there's a link that you can click on. Let's find a therapist. And then what I recommend people do is just put in the first three numbers of your zip code, 'cause then you'll get sort of the surrounding area of who's around you. And it's really great, Naomi, because you can see not only who the people are who practice cranial sacral therapy, you can see their picture, you can see how long they've been practicing, and you can see the number of classes that they've taken.

So they might have classes as well as like in visceral manipulation or zero balancing or a bunch of other modalities that might appeal to you. But that's the place to kind of start and say, "Okay. Here's a list of three or four people." And then like anything, for me it's all about connection. Do I resonate with this person? Or am I ... Does my body say oh no, you're not touching me. And just give them a call and tell him what's going on with you. And then see how you connect with them.

Naomi Nakamura: Okay, that's wonderful information. So say I find somebody who I think is gonna be a good match for me. When I go for my first appointment, what should I expect?

Mindy Totten: Every practitioner is a little bit different of course, but some of the common things that run through all cranial sacral therapy is you generally are going to remain clothed. So you want to wear something that's ... Yoga pants or tee shirt. No collars or jeans or anything like that. And you're gonna be on your back for the entire session, whether it's 30 minutes ... They're usually 30 minutes, an hour, or an hour and a half. You'll be on your back the whole time. There's always bolsters and pillows so that you're comfortable. And then you just pretty much zone out. So the person come in with that really, really light touch. If they're experienced and skilled they'll be able to follow your body where there are restrictions. And they will gently ... It's not like a chiropractic pop or twist ... The release is more like an ah ... Like an opening, a softening, lengthening of tissues. You'll often feel heat in the area. And so it's extremely, extremely relaxing.

What I tell my people is sometimes you might have a physical reaction. Like a twist or a jerk. Sometimes you may have visceral reaction. So your stomach gurgling, things like that. And sometimes emotions come up. You know, sometimes there are tears that come up. Or joy or whatever other emotion is in the body. But sometimes people just fall asleep and snore the entire hour. And that is perfectly wonderful. Because actually the latest research tells us that so much more ... That cerebral spinal fluid can work so much more efficiently when we're sleeping than when we're not asleep. So it brings in nutrients to the brain, then it pulls out toxins. And it can do that more easily when we're sleeping. So if you fall asleep during the session, that would be great too.

Naomi Nakamura: That sounds really nice. So it's not unusual then, if you just lie there, to not have a conversation going on with your therapist, right?

Mindy Totten: Well, every therapist is different. And what I tell folks is that I tend to work in silence. So that doesn't mean that they have to be silent. Do they have questions, or some people just process verbally. So they're just gonna talk the whole time. But I'm not gonna be babbling about my weekend plans or what's going on. I have soft music on, so I just sort of let them zone out into the music. But you should definitely, not only for cranial sacral therapy, but for any body work, if the person is talking and you don't want them to, you should definitely say, "Would it be okay if we didn't talk during this session? I really just want to go zero or something like that." And they should respect that.

Naomi Nakamura: That's a really nice way to put it. 'Cause I had those sessions before where like you said, you just want to zone out, but this person wants to have a conversation with you. And so I never know what is the appropriate protocol in these different types of situations.

Mindy Totten: Yeah, the appropriate protocol is that you are the person on the table. It's all about you. And I always tell people, I want you to feel empowered. This is your session. Nothing should hurt. Nothing should break, or you know ... I went for a massage once, and they were playing the radio so loud, which was maybe okay. But the second used cars salesman thing that came on, I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I left the session early. She was like, "No, I can't control that. It's in the spa or whatever." So I was like, "I'm done."

Naomi Nakamura: So when someone is ... Say they have some type of traumatic injury or they're in chronic pain, is there a recommended ... I don't want to say protocol, but would it be common for a therapist to say, "I recommend these many session for you." Or do most people find relief after one, which I know is really hard to answer 'cause everyone's different. But what's the approach there?

Mindy Totten: Yeah, so everyone is different of course. And what I do is i tell people that afterwards I'm gonna share my insights and what came up my awareness. And then I'll make a professional recommendation for going forward. So I've been doing this 15 years. So I feel really comfortable and confident saying, "This is what I've seen in the past. This is about how long it would take." And I also tell people all the time, "I don't know that cranial sacral therapy is ideal for what you're going through right now. I think you might be better off with chiropractic or physical therapy or whatever." And then I follow up in writing so that they can have it in the mail in front of them. Because it's so hard. You know, after a body work session, you're blissed out. It's hard to kind of absorb all of that.

And so I have had people ... You know, I work with chronic pain folks. So I have people all the time who come in and after the first session their headache is gone. That doesn't mean their headache's not gonna come back. So what I say is there's really three levels of care. So there's relief care, like okay, my head. I've got a 10 headache and I need help. So we can help you get rid of that headache or get it down to one or two. And then you need corrective care. Then we need to fix what's going on so you don't go back and have these headaches anymore. And then there's maintenance care. Like just making sure ... Just give you a tune up. What you're doing, really. Once every three weeks. And what I try to get people to is once a month. So that doesn't mean you always have to come in once a month.

I have folks who come in once a year on their birthdays. Just a special thing for them. But if you are able to come once a month, as you've found from chiropractic, if you find something that's really helping you, you are going to not only feel better, but you're going to enhance your health going forward. Right? Yeah. So if you stop doing chiropractic, you wouldn't fall apart tomorrow, but the fact that you keep doing it is making you healthier going down the road.

Naomi Nakamura: Absolutely. You shared a lot of great things with us today, and I just want to bring this full circle. On this podcast, I've naturally evolved to really help people address their skin issues from the inside out. But when you look at those things, we look at what are the root causes. Because there's always some underlying things going on. And I approach addressing those things through diet, through toxins. Through gut health and through stress. And all the things you just talked about here, support all of those things.

Mindy Totten: Yeah. Yeah, and in other ways as well. You know? So stress ... I mean, why did I get so sick in Singapore, is because I had this ridiculously stressful job. And because I was just trying to hit it harder rather than stepping back and healing. So absolutely, of course. Like what I was saying after cranial sacral therapy that people's eyes are clearer. That's exactly what you're talking about. Health from the inside out. Our beautiful skin from the inside out. So it's absolutely a piece of that. The stress part. And it's also those emotions that we were talking about too, right? I mean, it's hard to have clear skin or healthy outlook when you're chronically angry or chronically sad. And sometimes you might need body work in addition to other types of therapy to help that out. And then the last piece, Naomi, is that ... Have you heard of glial cells before? I'm totally nerding out now.

Naomi Nakamura: I probably have, but tell us what it is.

Mindy Totten: Okay. Your folks gonna be like, who was the neuro nerd that was on your show? So there's two types of cells in the brain. There are neurons, which of course most people have heard of. And then there are what are called glial cells, which are sort of like what the neurons sit in. Kind of like a bubble wrap. And what they're discovering now is that the glial cells do just as much, if not more than the neurons in the brain. And there are a huge number of neurons and glial cells in the gut, which is what you were talking about.

Naomi Nakamura: The two are so intricately connected.

Mindy Totten: Yes. Yes. And so cranial sacral therapy, some of the techniques that we do address the glial cells, usually in the brain, at a cellular level. But there are also techniques that they can do with the gut to really help ... I mean, you know, that affects everything. That affects-

Naomi Nakamura: It does. It does. Well, you have certainly enlightened me today. I was ... Like I said. I didn't exactly know what cranial sacral therapy was, and I feel so enlightened. And I am going to look up the link that you're going to send me to find one for myself, find a therapy for myself, and I'm gonna book a session. I am.

Mindy Totten: I totally think you should. I think that you would get a big kick out of it. And I would love to hear what you think of it after you go.

Naomi Nakamura: I will let you know. You know, I'm the type of person, who I'll try anything, and I'll geek out over it.

Mindy Totten: Me too, obviously since I'm talking about glial cells.

Naomi Nakamura: Oh, my! Well, why don't you share with us where people can connect with you and learn more. And I know you kind of pivoted in your work a little bit to help other body workers. But you also have a ton of great information just for regular consumers like me on your website too.

Mindy Totten: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me at mindytotten.com T-O-T-T-E-N. I used to tell my students it rhymes with rotten. So that always helped them to remember. Mindytotten.com and there's a link on that site. That's the site that I use to help other body workers. But there's a link on that site about cranial sacral therapy and me. And that's where it says, what the heck is it and other frequently asked questions. So you can get a lot of information there as well. I would love to answer any questions that any of your folks have about cranial sacral therapy.

Naomi Nakamura: Awesome, well thank you so much for taking the time.

Mindy Totten: Thank you for having me, Naomi. This is really a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.

Naomi Nakamura: If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to this podcast, write a review, or even share it with someone who you know would enjoy it too. In the meantime, you can find the show notes for this episode and all other episodes over on my website at www.livfablife.com. There you can submit a question to be answered right here on the show, sign up for weekly updates, insider access, and get behind the scenes scoops, and learn how we can work together too. Most importantly, thank you so much for being here. And I can't wait to connect with you again on the next episode of the show. See yeah next week.