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Naomi Nakamura: Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Naomi Nakamura. And today, we're in for a treat because I'm joined by Dr. Jacqueline Bouley Price.

Dr. Jacqueline is a chiropractor and she's a holistic health coach like me, who helps her clients find more balance on and off their plates. After years of her own struggles with food and weight loss, Dr. Jacqueline learned how to fuel her body and lose weight without feeling restricted.

To date, she has coached hundreds of happy clients who have changed their habits and found better relationships with food and with their own bodies. And, I happen to be one of her clients.

Yes, I am a health coach with a coach. That's something we actually discuss in this episode. And my goodness, you're going to hear us discuss so many different things.

We talk about our own health struggles, our health journeys, counting macros, restrictive dieting, how we still enjoy the food that we love. We get really deep into mindset shifts and self-awareness, and we even talk about how we're all doing during this COVID pandemic.

And personally, I share a number of things I have learned from Jacqueline, but especially one specific thing that has been so revolutionary for me, it's her secret sauce, her special flavor that she brings to the process, and it works.

So you will definitely want to listen to us in entirety because we get into it towards the end of the episode. I had so much fun talking to Dr. Jacqueline.

And really, this was just more like two friends who are also coaches getting together and having a chat and just having it recorded and sharing it with all of you. These are my most favorite kinds of episodes to do. So with that, let's just get to the show.

Hello, my friend. Welcome to the show.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, hi. It's me.

Naomi Nakamura: It's you.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yes. Hello. Hi, I'm Jacqueline. I'm so glad to be here.

Naomi Nakamura: I am so glad to have you here. Now, for listeners who may not already be familiar with you, can you introduce yourself and share with us what it is that you do?

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Sure. I happily will. My name is Jacqueline Bouley Price, and I am a chiropractor by training, but I'm also a holistic health coach, and I help men and women all around the world actually figure out how to find balance on and off their plates by teaching them how to understand food and how it fuels their body, and bringing that into a lifestyle approach that's sustainable.

Naomi Nakamura: And I am one of those people you are helping.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It would be true. Yeah.

Naomi Nakamura: It would be true. I know people are like, "You have a coach?" I'm like, "Yeah, coaches need coaches too."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Honestly, the best coaches have coaches. Tiger Woods has a coach. The best professionals in the world have coaches. They have a team, they have a crew of people, because we can't do it alone, and especially now.

Naomi Nakamura: No.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: No, we shouldn't.

Naomi Nakamura: Not at all. Gosh, I might have to have you come back on the show for an episode exclusively on being a chiropractor, because as I shared with you, I've been getting treatments regularly for 10 years. But I'm curious, how does one go from being a chiropractor, a licensed medical professional, to being a health coach?

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Absolutely. When I started my practice back in 2008, it was funny because I named it Live Well With Jacqueline, and I got some negative feedback on that name. And I had no foreshadowing to being able to build the brand that I have now had I named just like Bouley Chiropractic or town-of Chiropractic, I wouldn't have had the bandwidth to be able to explore this. But in 2008, I knew the way that I wanted to practice was a very holistic style of nature. My focus was always taking care of pregnant and postpartum women, but these women will come in and, yes, they had some period of discomfort during their pregnancy, but then they would want to understand, how do they take care of themselves afterwards?

And so, I would help them understand how to fuel their selves, how to take care of filling their cups so they can care for their family. And as my practice grew and my exposure to the community, more and more people were coming in because they understood that I didn't just crack your back, that I talked about your lifestyle, I talked about how your nutrition was, and what you were doing for supplementation and how you were moving your body and doing physical fitness. And so when word came that I actually really helped people in their entire lifestyle, my practice is really full of people who are really in that holistic mindset and space.

Back a few years ago, I realized that I had more to give than I could just throw my hands in this tiny little room, and so I had a vision of moving everything online. And COVID just catapulted that super-fast. So back in March, I definitely said, "You know what? Do I want this to look like?" And I use it as the opportunity to say, "Hey, listen, it's been 12 amazing years of caring for you all, and I appreciate what you've done for supporting me in this community, but I'm going to translate to being all online now." And that was when everything really picked up.

Naomi Nakamura: It's amazing. Good things can come out of this current situation.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: They definitely can. I definitely understand that it's been challenging for a lot of people, and a lot of people have had a lot of trials tribulations. At the same time, people who choose to come work with me, the first thing on my mouth is, "Look, this is an opportunity. You get to decide what you want it to look like." And I think we'll dive into that a little bit later about how either quarantine or coronavirus and all of this has definitely changed perspective for a lot of people. But I always love helping people navigate that because it's not just about food, there's a lot behind it.

Naomi Nakamura: Five years into doing coaching, I'm coming to realize that it is less and less about food and more about so many other things on a deeper level that maybe people aren't necessarily ready to face, but food's a great place to start.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I liked that you said that.

I always throw this hashtag around, #morethanjustmacros. And when I do my client consult calls, I say, "Look, you might be calling me because you want to, quote unquote, lose the 15 pounds, but I got to tell you, the people who get the most benefit out of working with me are people who want to do the deep work. And if that's not, you, that's fine, I just might not be the right fit. Or you can do that, but it's going to be really superficial, and then you might end up calling me in six months or a year because you didn't get to the deeper stuff. But if you want to explore it, I'm here for it with you." And people who do that, I've seen clients who made major breakthroughs, not in just weight loss, but I have women who... I'm going off on tangent here-

Naomi Nakamura: No, I love it.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: ... but I have women are getting divorces, who are moving across country, who are leaving careers, who are starting new businesses. This is not happenstance. This is coming from confidence from within that is being built. And yes, it's nice to fit into a smaller pair of pants if that's your goal, but holy smokes, if we can get you to break through and break free and really launch into your own potential, sky's the limit.

Naomi Nakamura: I want to get into your story here. But personally, and I just showed this in the last episode, it was back in 2004, I was turning 30. I was just not in a good place. There was a new gym opening up in my town, and so I joined, and I asked to be working with a trainer. And he was the one that actually first introduced me to macros, even though I didn't even know what that was called, but he was just like, "Let's count your calories." And back then, I did it, I dropped, I don't know, four or five dress sizes, I was down to like a size two and, but in hindsight it was done in such an unhealthy way and the part wasn't addressed. And so while I looked great and I appeared great, there was so many things that weren't great.

And for me, working with you again, it's brought the whole thing full cycle because I limited myself to the 1200 calories a day, because that's what the magazine said I was supposed to do, worked out like maniac because or me at the time, it was about calories in calories out without the holistic view. And then I switched to endurance training, so then it became all about eating to fuel for the run, and even that wasn't done in the best possible way. So it's not surprising that I not only over-trained, but then I had all these gut issues. And my nutrition then switched to, "I need to heal myself." And so that's where it's been. And when you're healing yourself, it's my own personal opinion, I don't know what you think of this, but tracking your macros or counting calories should be the farthest thing from your mind.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Naomi Nakamura: And I think that because I had a lot of clients come to me with that purpose of wanting to self-heal, but still telling me, "Well, how many calories should I eat a day?" And I'm like, "First of all, I'm not that kind of a coach. I am not a macros coach," yeah I'm working with you as well. But I don't know. I don't know what it is for you, what is your primary goal here? And so it's really been full circle for me to take this approach again in a so much more, I guess, smarter way, I don't know, nourishing way.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Ooh, I like that. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis a few years ago. and I'd had a thyroid issue prior and I just either ignored it or it went dormant, something happened there. At the time, I had been tracking with my coach, and I came to a screeching call and I was like, "Listen, I can't do this. I don't have the bandwidth to track and be so regimented on even counting every single morsel that goes my mouth, and then also trying to heal my mind and my gut and what's going on with my hair and my skin. And is there depression and anxiety? What is all of this?" It was just too much.

So I like you said primary goal. You can, once you've had the experience, and I love that you said you almost go through this circle where you got to recognize and say, "All right, I want to heal through this. I want to work through this." I just had a client consult yesterday. Now, consults are built on an interview. It's a funny thing, I always talk about Instagram. All my clients meet me through Instagram. What I put out there is exactly who you get. So you know me, you get to interview me. So by the time somebody is coming in, they already know who I am. I don't know them. And so when I'm doing that call, I always want to make sure that I'm giving the person the best possible referral or connection.

And this woman had said, "Well, I want to look at supplementation, and I'm going to look at this. And I'm dealing with this osteopenia, and I have this thing over here. She goes, "But I also want macros." And they said, "Whoa, it's so much."

Naomi Nakamura: It's too much another. That's another layer of stress on there that might be hurting you more than helping you.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: 100%. And macros can be stressful in and of itself. I try to make it as least stressful as possible for my clients. So with that particular consult, I said, "Hey, look, I'm always going to be here. I will have a for you, but I actually want you to go talk to this functional medicine nutritionist first." And she said, "I want to thank you. Thank you for having first of all, somebody you know, like and trust to refer me to. But also, I wasn't sure if I was the right fit, and I'm so glad that you were honest about that." I'm like, "Of course I was, because I only want the best for you." And that translates way back to me being a chiropractor.

Primum non nocere, first do no harm, and that's in every aspect. I always tell people like, "Look, you can go hire any macro person out there, you just don't know who they are, what their background is." So I bring to the table years of experience of caring for humans in a loving and compassionate manner that is to serve and not serve myself. So when I'm able to make a qualified referral to somebody else and say, "Hey, come back to me once you figure this out." And also know my bandwidth too. I don't need to take everybody, I'm not here for the money, I'm here for you to help you reach your goals. If I'm the right human, that's cool, if I'm not, I'm going to do my best to either tell you no and say, "I'm here if things change for you," or give you a referral to one of my trusted colleagues. And that's why love building a-

Naomi Nakamura: It has to be a right fit both ways because the last thing you want, and I'm going to say this, I fully realized that I am a terrible client for you. I'm always late with my check in. I'm late again today. But the thing is, I have all the data to submit in the portal, it's just a matter of like, "Oh crap, I didn't do that today." So I fully realize that I am not the most ideal client, but at the same time as coaches, you also don't want to be working with someone who's not fully committed to the process. It's not in the best interest for the client, it's not in the best interest for you.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: No. There's some tough love. People realize I tend to be the cheerleaderly type of coach, but I will push up tough love when I need to. I don't want anybody wasting my time because I have a capacity of how many people I will take on so I can give the best of me. And if somebody here is dragging me along and not doing any of the work and not putting their check-ins up for me to see and be helpful, that makes me sad. It makes me sad because now you're wasting your time, you're wasting my time, and then you're investing in something where I could hold space for another human who actually really wants to do the work. So if it's not a fit, just talk to me. I'm never going to be mad.

Naomi Nakamura: And that's okay.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's okay. I say that all the time. I will say, "That's okay." And I really wholeheartedly mean that. It is okay. It is okay on so many levels for so many different things for us to change, to shift, just be honest. The second, and that's I think the deeper thing too, when we get clear and honest, that's when the magic happens. I had a client in this week, she's like, "Well, I'm finally going to stop lying to myself about what I'm doing on the weekends." And I'm like, "Amen, sister. It just took you some time. I'm here for that. I'm waiting for you. I'm just waiting for you doing the bread and cheese and wine on the weekends and not telling me about it. Because that's blowing out your entire week that you're spinning your wheels, tracking, thinking you're making progress, and you're ruining it on the weekend."

So that's fine if that's what you want to do. That's okay. But what are your goals? If your goals are something different than what your actions are, then we got to come to the level, sister. I love these conversations because they really help people to be honest about what they want. Something I think that's really important, and I hope that I can bring this up, you can edit it out if you don't want me to share it. Well, one of your check-ins that I really love, with granola.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, we love, love granola. I think you know, that's a love language for me. And it's such a trigger food. And so when you write it, I'm like, "Shit, there is a mirror writing back to me." I know the granola. I know the granola.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You said something that was so powerful. You said, "I'm maintaining in quarantining, and I'm okay with that." And I think that this is so important because success can be defined in so many ways. One of the questions you had posed to me, you said, "What has quarantine or what has coronavirus or what has COVID brought amongst your clients? What have you seen as far as changes are concerned, either in existing clients or potential clients?" The corona coasters, one day we're on track, one day we're doing great, one day we're positive. We're riding the Peloton, we're at the gym lifting weights. And then the next day we are with the fist in the granola, shoveling it down, crying, just over-consuming and doing self-sabotaging behavior. But that, I'm going to go back and say, is okay, because everybody's doing that.

Every single person, if they tell you that they're not, they're lying to you. Because I tell you right now, even if they're not my client, they're sending me a DM, they're telling me they gained 30 pounds, they're telling me they gained 15 pounds. On average, I see most peoples gain somewhere between eight to 15 pounds. So when you said to me, "I'm maintaining and I feel great about that." I'm like, "Yes, you should." Because I'm watching people take it to a whole another level and not have any clue.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, I think what made me feel good about the maintaining part is... I think I started working with you towards the end of January, so between the end of January, and I just mentioned to you, we went into shut down on Friday, March 13th, I actually had a lot more progress than I expected. I think that I had lost like 90 pounds at that point. And just to give people context, when I talk about I was in a healing phase, I'm a pretty good phase right now, so now my focus has turned to shedding the 30, 40 pounds I've put on in the whole self-healing process, which do I wish it happened? No, but I'm a lot more accepting of it than maybe I was back in 2004 when I was just doing macros for the first time.

But, I was talking to Diane about this. We were laughing because we were saying, "Gosh, can you imagine if we didn't have all that lost to start COVID with? And then we were starting and going up from there?" That would have been, I think, a lot more difficult for me to process.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Of course.

Naomi Nakamura: But that part was really helpful in maintaining, but you're right. I was eating things in those first month to two months that I would never, I have not eaten in years. I'm always gluten free, dairy free, but let me tell you, Simple Meals, cookies, I was having the mini crispy chocolate chip cookies. I was eating it. And I'm like, "Why is this even at my house. This has not even been in my house for years.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Isn't that the funniest thing?

Naomi Nakamura: It is.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: We all went berserk and we're buying the craziest stuff, because we were just like, "I just need this. I need it, because it doesn't matter." And then we were eating it because you're just like, "Is the world going to end? If it is, I want to make sure that I have this cookie."

Naomi Nakamura: I'm ordering my groceries, which I've always ordered groceries online for years, but then I was like, "Oh, add to cart. Oh, dairy-free ice cream? Add to cart." As opposed to standing in the aisle and having that conversation about, "Do I want this? No, I don't really want this," where I can just add to cart.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It was fascinating, I think. And you're so not alone. People were just going off the rails. They really were. Eat and drink all this, because you know why? We thought it was going to be like a six to eight, maybe 12-week a thing. You're like, "I can't really do that much damage here." Flash forward nine months, and you're like, "Shit. Are we now facing another lockdown in some areas of the country? Are we going to be quarantining again? What is this going to look like?" It's so nice that you had that experience prior to shut down, because coming into that, in a space where you're already feeling a little bit discouraged or challenged, and then now we're here doing some behaviors that everybody's doing, it's just a matter of what degree, is sets a little bit behind the starting line, it is like glue.

So that's what I tell clients right now, I'm like, "Look, watch me. Especially if you're in New England, come to me now, don't wait till January one, you are not going to be happy if you do. This is my tough love side of things. I'm like, "Look, you might gain another 12 before we go into that, and then you're going to be really angry and you got to tell me you wish you called me then."

Naomi Nakamura: Now, then you think, "Gosh, that's so much, there's no way I can gain 12 pound between now and then."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yes, you can.

Naomi Nakamura: Yes, you can. The horror is upon us.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It happens so fast.

Naomi Nakamura: Yes, you can.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And even the holidays are going to look different, they're still here and there's seasonal foods, an extra pumpkin spice lattes because you deserve it today because it's 50 degrees and raining here for the third day in a row and I just want to eat. I told my husband, I'm like, "I just feel like fried clams yesterday." He's like, "Me too. My salad sucks." I don't eat fried clams in October, I do that at the end of July. But I'm telling you, all of us are having these emotional things because when we're sad, when we're depressed, when we're seeing this rain for the third day in a row and you just don't tease the sun, it's a thing coupled with... we're not getting political, but whatever's on the horizon coming up for next week, and then whatever's going on with the state of Coronavirus and what that is going to bring to us.

Naomi Nakamura: And we are all going to be stuck indoors.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: We all really are. I mean, the whole country, definitely no matter where, I think there's going to end up being more restrictions happening. So I'm not going to say like, "We haven't watching you guys." But honestly, I'm from the Midwest, I can't go visit my parents. I haven't seen them since March. There's a spike, terrible hotspot going on in Wisconsin, and then they have snow.

Naomi Nakamura: I was going to say, and then just with the weather, we're just naturally going to be endorsed for the next several months.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: We are. So what do you want that to look like? I've been telling my husband this for two months back and beginning of September, I said, "It's common." I said, "You really have to understand and know, we have to make a game plan for what the next six months are going to look like." Because it's already hard here in New England because it's already getting dark at 4:30 in the afternoon. It's cold, it's rainy, it's wet, it's starting to snow. Normally we travel, normally we go somewhere, are we doing that this year? I don't know.

We have an idea to escape and go rent a house somewhere and be completely socially distance, but even that, just like you said, are we driving to Florida? What does that look like? And so then all of a sudden, maybe we'll just stay home. And then you got to really like the one you're with, you know what I mean? That's a whole another thing too, or maybe you're alone and what's that look like? Where's the community? Diving, I think it's a neat exploring Instagram and Instagram relationships and friendships and community because that's what we have right now, is really what we have.

And we have to, I think, lean on that. And that's a good thing. It can be overwhelming at times if one doesn't get sick of all the zooms all the time, screen time is definitely... and getting just exhausted from that and being on is also then the flip side of it. So it is really trying to strike that balance, and that's, again, this holistic approach that I take with my clients. I'm like, "Look, what did you do for self-care this week?" I don't want to just hear a bunch of calories in calories out. Did you reduce your springtime?

Did you use the downtime app? What are you doing for your bedtime routine? Are you scrolling in bed? Are you're scrolling until you're sad? Put that shit away. Let's put some boundaries around that. I got tell you, Diane has been integral in me learning my boundaries for my own personal self, but then also translating that into my work with clients. And that's again, one of the reasons... I'm in Boston, you guys are out in the Bay Area and I've been able to forge a relationship with both of you, women, dads from the internet. I always choose, I want this t-shirt that says, "All my friends are on the internet."

Naomi Nakamura: All of them basically are.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. I met all my friends through Instagram. I've been Googling, I'm like, "Nobody's made that shirt yet." I feel like I need to make that, maybe as a side hustle. But it's actually interesting how those relationships you almost get deeper than some of the other people I've met in real life, in physical person life, because you can connect on other ways that you might not have because you just saw somebody in the gym once and then you left.

Naomi Nakamura: It was good to see your home, what you do in your home, behind the scenes. It's not just this like 50-minute gym class and then we go our separate ways. It's a more intimate connection, even though it is through the screen.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's true. Well, how about this, there's Coco Pop. Have I met Coco Pop? Nope, but I know who that is. Everybody knows Frankie and Simone, and I've connected through with my French bulldog lovers who follow me on Instagram where people are like, "I'm here for Jonathan's carb confessions." And I'm like, "Oh, those are gone."

Naomi Nakamura: It was actually what got me started following you because Diane was like, "Oh, you got to watch her husband on her stories."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, he's so funny.

Naomi Nakamura: It was hilarious.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: He's definitely has a supporting role at times now because... One of the things I love about that guy is how easy he is to make fun of and how funny he is, but now that he's reading food labels and just... Here's the thing about guys with weight loss, he changed up the jelly he eats and weighs out his Cap'n Crunch now. Yeah, he's Cap'n Crunch, and he lost 15 pounds and kept it off. And I'm like, "How did you do that?" Not even fair, you don't even track macros."

Naomi Nakamura: I know there's someone who's on the radio here, who I listened to this for sports talk radio every morning. And I’ve listened to him for over 10 years, but then he just posted a photo on social media of himself. And every morning, he's talking about his Peloton, and then I see a photo and I didn't recognize him, I don't know who it was. And so I sent it to Diane, I'm like, "Look at this before and after of this guy." And she's like, "Well, he's a guy, guys can lose weight. No problem."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: They literally do, and it's the most unfair thing on the planet. It's just like, "All right guys, you're up for six weeks." And then boom, you're done. It's crazy. It's a lot

Naomi Nakamura: And then they have no excuse.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's almost like they don't. And anytime I get a milk fine, I'm like, "You're in for it." I'm like, "You don't even know what is about to happen to you." I'm like, "You're just going to make a few small tweaks and you're going to be just fine." So it's funny that you mentioned Peloton, Jonathan actually commits to himself in a schedule, and this is one thing I do talk about what I find has been so helpful during coronavirus. When we're all at home, especially if we're not used to working from home, it's so integral to make a schedule. And if you'd like to time block, that's great, I happen to love that.

But even if you don't, writing out your tasks for the day, because that's going to keep you on track and not just feel like you're stumbling, trying to get stuff done and feel like, "Oh, I still don't have time to exercise or meal prepper. I have a client who just started, she's like, "I'm sitting for 12 hours at my desk, I don't have time to exercise." And I'm like, "Well, I don't believe that that's true. And that's where I'm going to push against top level." I'm like, "You're not scheduling your day properly, so let's take a look at it." I usually have my clients grab something like the best self-journal and start to block in that time for themselves. And it can be 30 minutes.

Back to the Peloton, my husband, he blocks 30 minutes first thing in the morning, 7:00 to 7:30, he's on the Peloton, hard and fast. And then if he wants to, at the end of the day, he might do like a decompressed one from 5:00 to 5:30. So now he's gotten in 60 minutes of movement because he does sit at his desk from 8:00 to 5:00 all day long, but he's made it a priority now, and that's been a nice change for him. He always used to work out, but he was running to the gym and doing a thing. It became a habit.

Naomi Nakamura: I was going to say, it became a habit.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It became a pattern.

Naomi Nakamura: You don't think about it anymore.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: He doesn't think about it, it's just something he does. And he actually has said that to me, he's like, "It's just what I do now." I'm like, "Oh." And I'm like, "Amen to that." Seriously, because that's my goal for every single one of my coaching clients that comes with me. I teach them habits. When you learn a habit, it becomes part of your lifestyle and now a sustainable. So going back to you, 2004 you, who to calories in calories out, track macros because you could follow the rules and white knuckle through and lose the weight. We didn't use any of that, I wouldn't make you, but the deeper work didn't get touched.

So it stayed superficial, so the pant loss and dress loss happened, but were habits to put in place around that? Or was it just like, "Let's get to this end goal and then celebrate."

Naomi Nakamura: The habits are put in place, but I wouldn't say they were put in place in a healthy way because that 1,200 calories was crap calories.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I hate that number. Can we just say this, I never liked to say the H word, I hate that number, it makes me so angry because you said somebody in a magazine somewhere said, "You need to eat 1,200 calories and that's it and you need to do X amount of cardio."

Naomi Nakamura: Oh, I religiously read Shape, Self and Fitness Magazine.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's those three.

Naomi Nakamura: And that's where I got that mindset. And so the makeup of those whole bunch of calories was not good. At that time, I was still under the belief that made you fat. And so I avoided that.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You were taught that, you're a girl in the '90s. What are those cookies? Madewell, not Madewell.

Naomi Nakamura: Madewell, SnackWell.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: SnackWell. Oh my God, my mom would buy me those, like, "Here, have these cookies, they are low fat." I'm like, "Oh, great."

Naomi Nakamura: Great. It was all about the fat grams, didn't even pay attention to sugar at all, which in hindsight, I really think a lot of my hormonal issues because I didn't have Hashimoto's and I still have thyroid issues, and of course with age, but I really think that that whole growing up in the '90s with fat is bad for you, really mess a whole bunch of us up.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Sure, did. And the chemicals that they replaced the fat with, and then it destroys your gut. And so now here you are with a gut issue.

Naomi Nakamura: Along with all the other things that are out there that wrecks your gut too.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh yeah. Well, because we want to try to make the flavor come. This is just a whole another episode, we can talk about all of these.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. It's a whole another podcast in and of itself. So the habits were there, but it was about the makeup of the calories weren't great. And the workout habit was there, but it was to the point where it was detrimental, to the point where it was obsessive. I over-trained, I fully over-trained to the point of complete exhaustion.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You had a trainer at the time who was encouraging that?

Naomi Nakamura: I had a trainer that I worked with, but then I got into endurance running and that's where that whole... For me, it's like, I didn't understand that I couldn't go hard in the gym with the trainer and train for the marathon. And he tried to tell me and I stubborn didn't listen, didn't get it. And that's where that went. I even had a running coach who between the two of them, they were both like, and they didn't know each other, but they were like, "I'm afraid you're doing too much."

And to me in my head, it was like from somebody who was never active as a kid to finally fighting this new part of myself, there's no such thing as too much, until you're forced to realize there's such a thing as too much.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. You're finally, I'm arriving, I'm getting to my goals, I'm hitting whatever those goals had been, either the physical fitness or the pant size or the endurance or whatever it was. There's so much to unpack there, and I love being at this age where we can look back and say, "Wow, that's what I was doing. This is how it's turning better."

Naomi Nakamura: [crosstalk 00:31:18].

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. All of that. I just did a post yesterday or two days ago where I said, "Are you comparing yourself to your previous year?" And that can go both ways. A lot of people want to self-sabotage or self-shame because they might look at like old pictures of themselves or, "Oh wow. When I was back training 2004, I was this." It really sounds to me, you've done so much beautiful work and I'm so proud of you for getting to this place and saying, "Look, I heal. I am healing." And only until I reach that space, will I allow myself to then now say, "All right, the weight loss now can be part of my goal. I want to get my myself healthy first."

Naomi Nakamura: It's still a work in progress, but-

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It will always be, it will always be.

Naomi Nakamura: And it will always be, but if they don't hit my calories every day, it's okay. I'm not beating myself up about it.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And thank you for that. I think another topic you wanted to cover was, how do we not become number obsessive? When I'm working with my clients, I just strike that balance.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. Being able to still enjoy the things that you still enjoy. I still enjoy the granola, and I went through bags and bags of it, but as I did in my check-in last week, got to the point now where if I just have two bites, I'm okay.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: But you lure a word in there, do you remember what that word was?

Naomi Nakamura: No.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Satisfied.

Naomi Nakamura: Yes. Two bites will satisfy me.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And then I said back to you, "I want that to be your mantra." Because if you ever come back to that granola and you feel like you want to go for by spray four or five, I want you to hit pause and say, "Two bites satisfies me." Because you had that experience in that moment before and eating to satisfaction is an intuitive meeting principle. And so to rewind too, I do teach all of my clients how to track macros, but that's not the end game here. Nobody ever taught you or me how to build a balanced plate.

Nobody ever said, "Naomi, this is your plate for your body, for your composition to maintain your weight." Nobody did that. And so you're given a portion size at a restaurant, maybe you're trapped by your family and that you need to do clean-plate club, whatever. You can't get up from the table unless you've finish this. And now all of a sudden, you're forced to eat whatever this food is. You don't have any connection with your brain to your stomach to be feeling full, you're just eating whatever's put in front of you.

There's no blame in that, but now you're confused because you're like, "Well, how did I get here? Now I have to either restrict calories or I'm over eating, whatever." So I try to unpack some of that with my clients. But my goal always is I teach them macros, teaching you how to build a balanced plate via macros because now you understand not only how to build a balanced plate, so you're nourishing your body properly and you're fueling it, so you're not overeating and over consuming, because most people just overeat.

We are society of people who overeat all the time and people don't have any clue.

Naomi Nakamura: I was in a place coming into... I was under eating for years, and then I was eating all the pasta to fuel my long runs.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Because you were told to do that, you better travel backload as you're in a marathon train.

Naomi Nakamura: And which then wrecked my gut on the run, but then when you get to this place of healing, I did AIP, Autoimmune Protocol because I had to. So much of that is there's a lot of fat there. In your mind, you're thinking, "Oh, this is healthy. This is what I need to heal." Yes, totally is, but when you get to the place of, "Okay, my body's in a good place, I think I'm ready to shed some of these calories." Not that it means that's going to help you. And let me tell you, I used to go through a container of almond butter a week, because almond butter became my treat food.

I gave up sugar, when you're on an autoimmune protocol is pretty restrictive. And so that became my treat.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I love this, and we're not bashing any protocols. Let's just take that out and say that.

Naomi Nakamura: No. Because there's a time in a season and a purpose for every single one of them.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: 100%, absolutely. AIP, very restricted, only meant to be a certain period of time, like we said a season. When you go into a very restricted diet, you immediately are looking for a reward. Anybody else, they're like, "Holy smokes, I can't have any of this." Or, "I need a something grab onto for dear life because I'm feeling-

Naomi Nakamura: To make my day.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yes. So now it's the almond butter. I have where I'm stashed with any kinds of nut butters, and I always talk about, I call them butter or macro asphalt because it literally steals so many macros for so little, and it's so depressing how little you get for that. However, I'm going to rewind it and apply it to myself. I used to be very strict paleo, followed all the guidelines, followed all the protocol. So parallel to you in your AIP experience, I lived in this land of restriction. And when you do that, it makes a lot of other things seem shiny and bright later on or within the land of restriction, you find something that either serves you and makes you feel really good.

So for me, I was like, "I'm totally into pork Bánh and avocados and I'm taking this shit down." And so I realized, so I'm five foot four, I was consuming around 2,400 calories a day. I can't do that, I just can't. And I was wondering why I was 30 pounds overweight. I'm like, "But wait a minute, I'm following all the rules. I'm following the guidelines. I'm eating within the realm of paleo, I'm not doing anything wrong. As a matter of fact,

And honestly, we have to be honest with ourselves. You just can't eat that much, but nobody was telling me I couldn't because I was following the rules. So there was like, how do you find the balance of, "Okay, I like paleo style of eating." That's what I trend towards, I like to eat more clean, I like to cook my food. I'm like, "Okay. Yup. That's my heart." I don't ever like to label myself anymore because I leave on my side so many flipping errors. So I don't like to say those words, however, if somebody would pin me up to the wall, that's my general philosophy, but there's space for eating dairy, occasionally and rice. Yeah, absolutely.

When I understood that I can still eat how you wish, but also the right amount of calories for what my body needs, that's when everything came together and I was able to strike the balance, strike the balance of fueling my body, not feeling hungry because I was restricting, but then also not feeling restricted in the land of no foods. So I try to teach my clients all of that. I had a consultant yesterday and he came on and he's like, "I like that you said that there is space for the cookie." And at least yes, there's space for the granola too.

And you said this, you're like, "I want to eat until I'm satisfied." You know that now because-

Naomi Nakamura: Not every cookie is made the same, not every good granola is made the same, find the one that works for you that, again, keeps you satisfied

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Keeps you satisfied, don't eat them when that's not worth it. That's worthless. You need to connect to the food and don't just do it mindlessly, again, another intuitive eating principle that I guide my clients towards eventually in our work together. But when you find something that's worth it, that's high quality, that's delicious, that leads to that satisfaction factor, then you can connect to that. You've also taken the time to weigh your portion and measure your portion and look at it and be like, "Okay, I get that for this. I get to decide. Am I taking two bites in? Am I taking four? Am I taking six? Am I taking eight?"

It doesn't really matter, I'm not going to tell you what to do. You get to decide it, you're empowered here. And then you get to decide, is that worth it? Yes or no. If I want to spend my macro bank calories on that today? Or am I satisfied with just two?

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. We're back in the day with my friends, we all grew up in the '90s, so again, we all had terrible conceptions of not just what is healthy food, but what is healthy period. Anyways, we would know that we were all going out and then one evening or whatever, like a Saturday night or somebody's birthday, whatever, and we would starve ourselves for days leading up to it. It's like bank calories. And looking back, I'm like, "How terrible was that."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh yeah. I remember going to parties in college and I would be like, "Donate, donate, donate one tiny piece of bread." To then observe all the booze and food that I was going to eat that night at 3:00 AM, like cheese sticks and captain and Coke. I mean, it was nasty stuff, I would never do now. And I still got into trouble, and then it just became this restriction situation. And so clients who want to unlearn behaviors, that's who I love working with because people hear macros, they think restriction. And if they're misinformed, then they're going to think that. They're going to think, "Oh, I can't eat blah, blah, blah." In reality, macros give you food freedom, and when we say macros, this is short for macronutrients, meaning proteins, carbohydrates, and fats.

This is a balance of the three biggest essentials that you need to fuel your body. So when we take a look at you and what your goals are, we say, "Hey, listen, let's eat this amount of calories and on that amount of calories, let's have some go-to fats, carbs and protein. It's all really nice and balanced." And then you eat to those numbers. And that can help you reach your goals, whether it be changing your body composition, losing body fat, gaining lean muscle mass. If it's gaining weight, there's all sorts of ways to utilize, if you just want to recover better from a workout, being scared of carbs.

I can't tell you how many people have come off of keto, come work with me and they're petrified of carbs. They're like, "I'm going to get fat. I'm going to get fat." Trust me. And then I give them cards back and they email me a literally, it's a little be scared.

Naomi Nakamura: They feel more energized.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: They're like, "My brain, I can't think now." I'm like, "Yeah, I'll come." They're like, "Oh, I'm now like dog tired after one 30-minute Peloton session." And I'm like, "I know, because your body needs carbs, honey. And that's okay. That's a good thing. Don't remove a food group." "Huh," Can I say something? My girlfriend went on Target the other day and she opened up her Rachel Hollis. It's a calendar like a journal. And in on one of the three tasks, it says removing entirely one food group. And she put it in her story, that happened yesterday.

And I thought, "That's so fascinating why somebody recommend that." What do you think that that's about?

Naomi Nakamura: I don't think she has any professional training in health and nutrition.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: No. Yeah, but that global message to getting put out there to someone who picked up that book who really appreciates what she has to offer, her own value, and I'm not trying to peg her, but it just makes me concerned.

Naomi Nakamura: Oh, it happens to celebrities who promote something.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. Well, here's my point though, we don't have to remove anything, we'd have to have samples of what we're consuming. And that's again, just what our society is taught, our portions are big, your hand in big things. And so when we really learn what it tastes to fuel our bodies, and if you're willing to do the work to choose to lose weight, that is work that is hard. It takes dedication, it takes tracking, it takes planning.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. And it also takes it effort of getting to know your body because you're in your body, but you may not really know it because we're not paying that close attention to it. I don't know about you, but I always tell my clients when they're like, "Oh, that feels so restrictive." And I'm like, "Well, I don't want to feel deprived." And I'm like, "Well, you're here talking to me for a reason because there's a goal you're trying to reach, or there's a place you're trying to reach that you're not able to, so you're asking me for help, but if you're not there yet, and you're not able to get there, you're already living in a state of deprivation."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And it's sad. I think a lot of times, people want to make the change, but they don't know what that entails or they don't know what they're willing to give up. And it isn't even giving up something. So I would say to that, "Oh, you feel restricted? Tell, where you feel restricted." For me, when I first started tracking, I thought, because I went from paleo, so probably about 100 grams of fat a day down to 50, I emailed my coach and I said, "What are you doing?" And she's like, "You're fine." And I said, "No, no, no. I'm used to eating 100 grams of fat, I can't just eat 50." She goes, "That's actually a lot of fat, you're going to be fine." And I was like, "Oh my gosh."

So then in my mind, I was like, "I now have to have 99% lean ground turkey. I can only have chicken breasts and I can only have grown chicken." So then I lived in the space of that, and I felt restricted. Now, I'm not knocking my coach at all, but I never knew how to commute, so that's what I figured out on my own, but I didn't know how to communicate and say, "Hey, listen, I really love chicken fat." Or, "I love to be able to eat ground bison. I belong to this farm share and we get 80% ground beef here."

If I were to verbalize, and this is only me having had this experience, if I were able to verbalize that to her, she would have said, "Cool, let me show how you can make that fit." And then I would have been like... and I would have been fine. But that takes work, that takes me understanding, paying attention. Now, three years later with experience, I have a hashtag like why the thigh? It's because it tastes better. Chicken breasts are great.

Naomi Nakamura: I only eat chicken thighs, but I think the thing that's been so transformative and helpful for me working with you, it's just the concept of pre-logging your day.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Honestly, if I have... Okay, this is funny because I told Diane like months ago, I was like, "I have a secret." I said, "My secret... "

Naomi Nakamura: Oh, did I just reveal your secret?

Dr. Jacqueline ...: No, it's not. This where she's so helpful, I said, "Diane, the secret is pre-logging." She goes, "Do not keep that secret." She goes, "You tell everybody, you tell everybody right now." I said, "Why would I do that?" I said, "It's my trick." She's like, "No, no, no." She's like, "You let everybody know that that's what you do and that's your power, that is your weapon. And that empowers people, and they're going to come on a work with you because you hold them accountable to doing that." And the second she taught me that, I was like, "Holy smokes, she's totally right."

So I will definitely drop in, I might use Ram and say, "Listen, my trick, I don't get out of bed in the morning until my food is pre-logged. My feet literally cannot touch the floor or I cannot go downstairs unless my day is pre-logged. Otherwise, forget it. You know why? I'm off to the races, I'm drinking now, something in my coffee, I might end up grabbing a snack that I didn't intend to do. And then all of a sudden, now that spirals. And then the mindset goes, "Arg, my day's ruined, I've already went over my targets, I guess, whatever."

Had I not tracked today, Jonathan shows up with that pumpkin muffin, I could have been like... or I could have said, "Okay, listen, I have sweet potatoes here, I have rice here, it give me a carby, addition to my day. Let me pull a little bits here and I'll make it work." And that is called flexible dining when you are empowered to understand what foods have what values. In my paleo days, I would said, "I can't eat that. You just ruined my day." Or my old tracking days, I would have said, "No, I've already had my day planned and you're now ruining it." Or, "Are you the devil tempting you with a baked good, get out of my face. Not today, Satan."

Instead I was like, "Dude, listen, I'm just going to just wrap them for lunch instead." I did the macro dance. When I teach my clients to be empowered and I call it the macro dance, where you can be flexible and you can ride the wave and flow and know how to wiggle things around and play that macro Tetris game, you win. And that's how you sustain it for a lifetime. I love that. It's my favorite way to live because no food is off limits.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, I for one, I'm not a meal prepper, I'm not one to set aside half my Sunday to prep food for the week, that's just not how I eat. So pre-logging is my meal prep because I have in my head what I'm going to eat for the day, and if anything, I will log breakfast, lunch, and dinner, so then it helps with that part of it, the planning. It helps with decision fatigue,

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I love that.

Naomi Nakamura: Because then I don't have to think, "Oh, what am I going to eat today? I just open the app, MyFitnessPal to see, "Oh, this is what I plan to eat today." And then in the morning, I look at what I'm having for dinner. I take the protein out of the freezer to defrost. So that's, again, that's something I have to think about, is already planned. And then I look to see, "Oh, based upon the meals that I am planning to eat today, I have this many calories for like snacks. If I get hungry in-between," and I diversify what I eat, but for the most part, I know how many calories are in what snack so typically then that can help me decide what's appropriate for the day."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: That's a great way. And I love how you structured it. So you do something that I think is really smart, because you're prioritizing protein, so you're taking a look at your date. First of all, you have a plan. I don't think anybody can lose weight or stay on track without a plan, you can't just hope it's going to land in place. So you're saying, "I have protein in my freezer, I take a look at dinner, then work backwards, backlog my day for lunch and for breakfast." Because those are the mains. I always say, "Look, nail your three main meals of the day and if you got cash leftover, go by yourself a little wallet." Do you know what I mean?

Naomi Nakamura: That's exactly right. Actually, I did have a little bit left over yesterday, so I did have half a granola bar yesterday because I had the extra.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I would tell Jonathan, I go, "Up extra carbs and fat." He goes, "It means extra cookie." He knows many lines, he always dream for another cookie. For an extra scoop of ice cream, that's how I log it, because to me that's... Again, this is me eating what I like. You just told me that you are satisfied and happy when you get to eat granola, so if you can wiggle your day to prioritize the big things you know you need to hit like protein and making sure you're getting your water in and you're prepping your food and you're not getting takeout because you didn't have a plan, I think that's where a lot of people fall off.

Naomi Nakamura: Or you're not ready to eat dinner and realize you didn't defrost any meat, so you're cooking up the eggs again, nothing wrong with eggs, but-

Dr. Jacqueline ...: No, but listen. Do you know what I learned when I first started, I used to meal prep a lot, I don't now anymore. I am same as you, I cook throughout the day. I can do that, I work from home. Now, I'm not on paleo. Michelle Tam years ago taught me the beauty of the defroster meatballs that lives in the fridge.

Naomi Nakamura: I think so many people I know learnt that from her.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: This is what I love, when something is so simple, actually is so remarkable in your life, and you pass it along. And now you just have this bowl or this dish that you literally are looking, "What's in my freezer, I'm going to take that out." And since you have this rotation, now you get into the rhythm. And so, "Oh, it's scallops small. Oh, we're having chicken thighs. Oh, we're defrosting these ribeye." My husband brought home ribeye the other day. Now, come on, listen, I'm sucker for a ribeye, anything barbecue, any kind of fatty or meat, Diane and I have talked about this. Like, Listen, I love that too. I can't have it every day, but if it shows up once a week, I want to be able to make it work."

So Jonathan brought this rabbi, I'm like, "All right, dude, you told me that they're coming, just don't blindside me with that. Let's plug them in for dinner or for lunch the next day." So this is how we did it the other night. I had scallops, so I'm like, "I'm going to have scallops for dinner, but you're leaving me half the leftover ribeye and I'm putting it on my salad for tomorrow." And I plugged it in for lunch, and then I made dinner be again, a lean protein, so I had scallops again. And that's how I made it happen. When you have a fattier cut of meat, you just don't get a lot to play with. And people don't realize like how quickly that goes.

So like, "Well, I eat a lot of meat." I'm like, "Yeah, pork, but ribeye, you're taking back so much fat along with that and then there go all your calories." But when you strike the balance of eating the kinds of protein that you enjoy, plus some of the leaner cuts, then you're going to reach your goals, whatever those goals happen to be.

Naomi Nakamura: I will say, I have learned that, and I am a meat eater, it is challenging for me to hit that protein goal every day. And I definitely do not did it every day. And it was so surprising to me because like I said, I'm definitely a meat eater. And even for me to see that like, "Wow, I really need to focus on meeting this protein goal." It was definitely eye opening.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I like that you brought that up too, and I'm going to take that onto something else as well. But with the meat, that's why tracking is so empowering because people are like, "I eat a lot of meat, a lot of protein." And then they track and they're like, "Oh, actually my fault." I don't. They're like, "Holy smokes, I'm only eating half of the goals you recommended. Whoa, now, what?" But then the flip side to that is if someone's really struggling to hit that week after week, after week, I'm not the kind of coach where I'm like, "Well, you just need to do it."

I'd be saying, "Okay, fine. I'm going to lower your target, I'm going to bump up your targets here. And then when you're getting consistent with hitting this number, maybe we can edge up to this. And then also here's some tips and tricks on how to increase your protein intake, consider this protein either shape, or I want you to bump up your three ounces of chicken thigh up to four or four and a half and see how you feel about that." That's what the beauty is of working with a coach is you don't just give up.

Again, you can go get your macro targets online on a calculator and then see the number, or try to eat it, you're like, "This didn't work for me, forget it." Versus a coach who's going to help you be flexible and understand and give you some ideas. Let's be honest here, you said something about the gym and what's happening, coronavirus, a lot of my clients could not hit the gym for several months in the very beginning, their gyms just opened up. And they're like, "I'm going to gain weight." And I understand that not going to the gym and not getting your steps in definitely decreases your movement, but you got a lot of power in the kitchen.

That is where the biggest bang for your buck comes. I tell clients, "Listen, it is 90% diet and you're not going to want to hear that, and it sucks." I'm serious, I love to eat. I was fat kid, I love food so much, but really, that's where your empowerment is. So if you take a step back and understand how much you're actually consuming and what you need to consume to actually get through the day and then how a little bit more, less you need to consume in order to lose weight, that's where the trick comes. So somebody needs to be in a caloric deficit, and what that means is you got to eat just a little bit less every single day than your body needs and you'll lose weight.

But the makeup of that caloric deficit matters because like you said, if you're just eating 1,200 calories and it's a crappy makeup and it's a lot of carbs and not a lot of protein, you're going to become skinny fat, and you're going to be hungry all the time because you're eating carbs, you're constantly spiking the blood sugar. We push a lot of protein because number one, it saves you eating, meaning, it keeps you feeling full. Number two, we need to maintain lean muscle mass because you lose body weight, you're losing fat and muscle.

I don't want you to lose muscle, I want you to keep as much muscle as humanly possible, especially as a human, but now as an aging woman. As women who are 35 plus, we are losing muscle mass at a rapid rate, and we need to keep that on as humanly possible to protect our bones and to protect our joints. So being able to do that by increasing the amount of lean protein somebody consumes in their diet, is what's going to be so helpful to do that. I went to Target and Trader Joe's the other night, and I bought a Garmin watch.

And I love this one, people always are like, "I'm so active. I'm so active, I get so many steps. I get so many steps." I went to Target, I went to Trader Joe's. I parked my car far away, always do this. I came home, I had 3,400 steps. 3,400. And people are like, "I'm running errands." My sister, you underestimate completely how active you think you are, so with that whole 10K steps thing, people have no clue, unless they really, really-

Naomi Nakamura: These are hard. When I was running, it was no big deal to hit those steps. And now that I haven't actively run in what, three or four years, and I have a dog who she's also on her own weight loss journey right now, so I walk her three or four times a day, and even then like on a good day, I'll hit 5,000 steps because I'm at home working all day.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Daily, honestly, and I should help people is on average, I somehow hit around 4,000 to 4,500 steps a day. That's just what I get. And unless I do, and I call these an intentional walk, people are like, "What's an intentional walk?" I'm like, "That's you getting your butt out and walking with an intention." Walking to walk.

Naomi Nakamura: Yes. With a pep in your step.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. A pep in your step, maybe a podcast or an audio book. And I'll tell you right now, if you do that and commit to that, make that part of your program, even a couple of times a week, that is going to make a massive difference. We need to get up, we need to get away from the screens, away from the computer, get outside, get the fresh air, especially now that it's getting cold. I have a lot of clients in the Midwest and they're like, "What do I do if it's raining?"

Naomi Nakamura: If you walk with intention, with a pep in your step, you're going to sweat a little bit, so it won't feel so cold.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: That's right. I train for a half marathon ones back up here and it was 17 degrees on our runs. And I remember talking to my girlfriend, Julia, and I was like, "How are we going to do this?" And she's like, "You're going to be fine."

Naomi Nakamura: My favorite time to train when I was training was during the fall and winter. To me, the most perfect race would be, there's a California International Marathon in Sacramento here first week of December, to me, that was the most perfect race to train for because you're starting your training at the end of summer, so you're not trying to train through the heat. And then the race day, it's cold, but you're out running. And that feels good, which means that's always the best timing I think to train for race, off the top of that.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I think that that's important because when you know the rhythms and you know the seasons, then you can understand where you can have your most success. And I think that comes back again to listening to your body. And you have done that. You've done that personally in your own health journey saying, "Look, I don't like the D word, but there's a time to diet and a time not."

Naomi Nakamura: Time to sit in.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah, I'm like, "Now's not the time." I'm like, "You need to stop it. We're reversing you out. End of story. Knock it off." I have a girl who's moving across country, she leaves this week. She's like, "I'm so scared that I'm not going to be able to keep up with my training. How am I going to do my meal prep while I'm on the road?" I'm like, "No, no, no." I'm like, "You're just going to intuitively eating." So then when we Zoomed back like six weeks, and I said, "Let's reverse-diet you out. So now while you're traveling across the country, you can just eat intuitively and you can move your body with the band. It's not a big deal."

So again, that's when it's working with a coach instead of her being so white knuckled into the idea of, "I got to maintain during this time." Which, by the way, she's not going to maintain because she's traveling, and now she's going to set herself up for negative self-talk. We just say, "Hey, listen, take a break." And as a matter of fact, you'll probably do better when you take a break.

Naomi Nakamura: There's something to be said about having someone else there just to give you permission to take the break.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Permission, it's a beautiful thing.

Naomi Nakamura: Not everybody feels like they need the permission, but a lot of people do.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. And then here's the thing, when you're able to give your clients permission and that positive, beautiful self-talk starts to happen, they can start to give themselves permission. And then that's when it becomes autonomous. I used to never give myself permission, there were no days off, and never miss a Monday. And all this nomenclature that I would see on Instagram that I just had to do, otherwise I was a failure. Instead, when I started to listen to my body and give myself permission to not work out as hard or to take a break or to not track this particular day because I'm feeling a little blue, but I'll just intuitively eat, hey, this is lifetime, man. I teach macros for the people, nobody in my space is giving them a stage.

Naomi Nakamura: I love that, macros for the people.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I do. Yeah, I do. And that resonates for humans. The person who's not for me, if you're stepping on a stage or something like that not for me, I'll make you a referral to one of the best that I know in the bit. If you want to understand really just what a portion size is and how to not yo-yo diet and how to incorporate the foods that bring you joy, how to be able to have a piece of cake at kid's birthday party, but not feel like you need to binge it all because you never get to have it, and then how to get back on track the next day, I'm your girl. I will help you through that.

I want to be through all the sticky parts.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. And you know what? Food wins all of us so much joy because it is so much in how we connect with other people as well, it's such a social thing, that to not be able to enjoy it is really sad. And I think we can enjoy it in ways that won't throw us off, all of the effort that we put in.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: We absolutely can. But unfortunately, the industry tells you that that might not be true and that you need to buy their supplements or subscribe to a program that has restriction or food lists in it, or menu plans. It sets everybody up for failure, and the diet fails you. 100%, every single time.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. I think that's the crux of it, is just total awareness about yourself, about the food that you're eating, just about everything that is around you.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: That's why I usually have my clients start, I'm like, "I just want you to start with awareness." They're like, "I didn't track the first three days." I'm like, "I don't care." They're like, "You're fine." I'm like, "Just even you logging what the heck you eat." Did you go to dinner this past weekend? Did you decide not to track because it was too hard to guess? That I don't like. I want you to write it down.

Naomi Nakamura: When we started eating out again, I was like, "I don't know what this is. I can't track it."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: He like, "Ah, I don't know." And I tell clients, I'm like, look, I want you to track and I don't care if it's just a guesstimate. And let me tell you why, now your mind is connected." And just like you said, the conversation, am I getting this ice cream? Yes or no, because you were holding it physically in your hand, that's the same thing with tracking when you choose to eat a meal out, I want you to have meals out. I want you to support small business right now with all these restaurants and everything. I don't want us to just throw our hands up and be like, "Heyo." Having an indulgent meal out and not really knowing, or pretending we don't know because we just want to not have to think about it, because I just need a break.

And guess what? Sometimes that's okay too. And I'll give my clients a free meal. I'll be like, "Have a Saturday night free meal, it's your one free meal a week, but then just so you better respond on the rest of the week."

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. When I'm placing my DoorDash order for Roam burger, I find that I actually go for the turkey burger now versus the beef or bison burger. I do, because I think I don't feel as heavy after eating it. I don't know if that's a psychological thing as well thinking, "Well, I'm eating ground beef versus ground turkey versus beef or bison," but I actually do go for the ground turkey. And that's my go-to now. And I got to tell you, to me, ground turkey is the most appealing piece of meat.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I know.

Naomi Nakamura: But, it is great in this burger that I get.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Well, it's awesome that you've explored that. You could have maybe said, "Oh gosh, I've made ground turkey so many times, there's no way I'm getting it at this place." But you explored it and you recognized that that was maybe a choice that was going to get you closer towards your goals. And then you created that as part of your habit order now. So you still get to go out, you still get to have somebody cook for you and you don't have major cleanup and-

Naomi Nakamura: It still tastes good.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Still tastes good. And you're not miserable either.

Naomi Nakamura: No, no, no, it's a choice now. And it doesn't feel like I have to do this. I will never cook ground turkey for myself at home, I just will not do that. But, if I'm going to go out, that's the one way that I can find a little balance of eating out there, because I will have a couple of those fries, but I'm having a ground turkey and it tastes good, and I enjoy it. And it's actually my first choice now. I don't feel like I'm doing a trade off.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: How did you get there though?

Naomi Nakamura: Diane was actually the one that was like, "Oh, why don't you try that ground turkey?" I'm like, "Why would I try the ground turkey?"

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Wait a minute, Diane? Diane? He's ground turkey.

Naomi Nakamura: I told her like, "Oh, I'm ordering from Roam." She's like, "Well, you should try the ground turkey." And I'm like, "Why? I'm getting a Roam burger." She's like, "Oh no, it's actually really good." I was like, "Uh, all right. I'll get it this one time." And then I was like, "Actually, it is really good."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Well, that's amazing. I love that she suggested that for you. First of all, I never got to try Roam when I was out there and I know how much you girls love it-

Naomi Nakamura: It's so good.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And so I have to try it the next time I come visit. I did get to go to Souvla. And rest in peace, Little Gem. I did get to go to Little Gem.

Naomi Nakamura: They're still open, they're just not in the one on Union Street, their original location.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, the original is still open? I'll be right by.

Naomi Nakamura: Yeah, still open, but it's just the second location, or I don't know what number it was, but the location on Union Street's not anymore, but the Hayes Valley location's still open.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Okay. On the list then. It's back on the list of when I ever get out there.

Naomi Nakamura: And Lamar.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, I've got to go there.

Naomi Nakamura: Oh good.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, that's special. Honestly, I knew all that because of following Diane, and then seeing you pop in every once in a while, I was like-

Naomi Nakamura: Well, one thing is, I think prior to COVID, they didn't really do takeout because it was a higher end restaurant, and then when we realized they were doing takeout, we're like, "You mean we could enjoy Lamar at home in our yoga pants? Really the best thing ever."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Best of both worlds.

Naomi Nakamura: We were like, "This is great."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: And of course here's the thing, we've talked about this too, my jam is I want sushi once a week. I literally want sushi once a week. This brings me joy. It brings happiness in my life. My husband enjoys it. He likes gifting it to me. It's like his presentation. So again, when I first started tracking, I was like, "I can't lose sushi. What are you doing?" There's too much rice, there are too many carbs, there's gluten, whatever. And I had to fit it into my life eventually. And this just takes time to understand who you are. And this life fit is a process, progress, not perfection. You have to find what you enjoy. And I'm like, "I'm not living my life without sushi either once a week or every other week." That's what's happening.

But how can I make it? So it's not such an overindulgent experience where I come out of it thinking, "Ugh, all right. That was-

Naomi Nakamura: We're rolling out of [crosstalk 01:06:33].

Dr. Jacqueline ...: [crosstalk 01:06:33]. I've done that so many times too.

Naomi Nakamura: I've done that too.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's so good. So I learned how to make a few modifications to my order, and so now I go a little bit heavier on the sashimi, and I get a Naruto roll, which is wrapped with cucumbers instead of rice. Something to ask like rice. So there's so many ways to be able to modify it so it fits my needs, and then I don't feel that I don't have that FOMO. I think FOMO is a real thing for a lot of people, especially when you are tracking macros and you're going out with like a family or your partner and they can eat whatever, and you're looking at the, you're like, "Arg." And you don't want that. That sucks.

So trying to find what brings you the joy in eating out, but yet totally doesn't blow your tracking off, that is a sweet spot you got to explore. And then, there might be times where you eat seven cake pops because you went to the Boston Ballet Gala, like I did, it and I was honest about it, but then guess what? I literally was on track the next day. That's the thing, I never punish anymore. I used to be like, "Oh, I was so bad. I ate all the carbs."

Naomi Nakamura: I'm going to do a double workout tomorrow.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh yeah. Punish, punish, punish, double cardio, only eat one meal. None of that. That's all gone behavior, all of that negative, that beat up, that bad talk, Naomi, I was so tired of doing all of that.

Naomi Nakamura: It's exhausting.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's exhausting. And then you're just number in a space of like happiness or like content. So the only reason I'm a good coach is because I've done all of this myself. I've been through all of this, and this is why people resonate with me. They're like, "Oh, she went on her first diet at 14. She was a lacto-pesco-ovo vegetarian. She understands restriction. Oh, she was strict paleo. She working out six days a week at CrossFit and she was still 30 pounds overweight. What the heck? That's me too. My adrenal are shut." All of that. All of it. And when I finally just got... And even still, I am still a work in progress.

I always say this, I'm not a robot. There's days where I have bingy moments too. I can't make those butterscotch oatmeal chocolate chip cookies, whatever the heck I have in my house, I don't know, I'll take down seven or eight in one sitting. I can't do it, but I have awareness around it. I don't beat myself up. Being able to have those honest conversations. And like I said, just be honest, be kind, work with somebody who you can trust, and be honest with about. Don't keep it superficial, the person who's going to get the biggest reward or a lifestyle change is somebody who's willing to be honest and say, "Hey, Jacqueline, I ate a lot of granola this weekend, but I know about the granola. And now I'm only having two pieces, and that's a good thing. And I'm feeling good about that."

Naomi Nakamura: The new novelty of it has worn off, so I'm good with my two-

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Isn't it interesting, I think a novelty thing can really be... it's not as sexy anymore. Listen, granola's sexy, but for you and taking down more than you probably desire in that moment, it just changes. I told somebody that the other day, I was saying the idea of like binging on certain foods loses its luster.

Naomi Nakamura: It does, because the first time I had coconut almond chocolate-

Dr. Jacqueline ...: It's crack. I know I had it at my dessert last night.

Naomi Nakamura: I finished the bag in 48 hours. I was in bed eating it, and I'm going, "This stuff is gold." And then the next bag that I had actually lasted me eight days.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Okay, but that's 100% improvement. Do you recognize that?

Naomi Nakamura: Oh yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: I mean, more even.

Naomi Nakamura: Because those things are not very big. And the fact that it lasted me eight days, I was pretty proud of myself.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You're should be like 150% being proud of yourself. Seriously. Think about that. That's massive improvement. That's progress. You can say, "I am not going to have granola." And we even said it too in your check-in. And I never asked you to completely take it out. I did post too, I said, "What if we remove the trigger food for a little while and then bring it back in?" And you were like, "All right." But maybe me suggesting that led you to this space of, "All right. I want to keep it in here, but I'm going to explore my satisfaction factor."

And that's why I love coaching with you because you're open to recommendation. You also are self-aware enough to be like, "Yeah, I don't want to do that, but I'm willing to try this." And that's the best kind of accountability partner in my relationship and coaching relationship with my clients. You don't need to do what I do, nobody needs to be me. But if I meet you where you're at and ask you to just make some tweaks and bounces and changes and we can have a conversation, then we're buddies.

Naomi Nakamura: And I will say, I frequent your Instagram feed often for meal ideas. When I'm just so tired of what I'm eating, I need something new and fresh, and so I do.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, I appreciate that. Listen, I don't make menus, I don't really do recipes, I just make everybody cook.

Naomi Nakamura: I know. I'm not a [greenich 01:11:47].

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You know what? That's the other thing too. I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, I can't. I don't want a meal prep at home. I can't cook." And I'm like, "Listen." I call it the two, two, two method. I'm like, "Take two proteins, two carbohydrates, two veg. You're going to either meal prep it or you're going to have it ready in a rack or on your fridge." You need to get the best spices money can buy. Honestly, just by the balanced prices, just invest in a set because they're plug and play. You don't have to think, you just shake them, you cook it. You're done. You throw in a half an avocado, Amen to that, move on with your day. Literally does not have to be complicated.

And then you ultimately, you send this too earlier, you know you want variety, but you also eat the same things on a rotation. The person who's going to be successful in doing a weight loss or body composition change or any of that is doing that, 100% they are.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, it's better for your gut health too that you're not eating the same things all the time, but yet you're still eating stuff that you know you like.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You have to be eating what you like. If you don't like it, forget it, you're never going to stay on it. Naomi Nakamura: Yeah. And you're not going to be happy.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You'll never be happy. You will be sad and dissatisfied, and you'll look for the pizza or the burger that's going to just make you feel like you're giving yourself a reward for being so good and knuckling through this, whatever diet. I always tell people, "Look, swap out all your spices." Oftentimes, that is one of the number one thing someone can do to change up their routine, to make them feel like they're not feeling deprived. And so when you roll through your blends of balanced bites, have it therefore.

Naomi Nakamura: You're adding flavor to your food.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: People don't know how to flavor their food. I say, most of the time you want take out is because they add fat and salt. So I know that I'm taking away some more fat from you, fine, but then learn how to season your food, and up-level yourself, game girl because the second that you do that, most of the time you'll be fine. So empowering people to feel like they can do it themselves. And I appreciate you popping on to my Instagram to get a little inspo. I feel like I should do a little better at saving meal and inspo ideas. I just do stuff and then it disappears.

Naomi Nakamura: I go through your feed. I just go through your feed, and like, "Oh, there's a meal. There's a meal. There's a meal."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh good. I'm just somewhere on those. Same too. I always like to do that because I know people want to see that. But I think sometimes we're like, "Oh yeah, I never thought about Brussels sprouts actually being delicious because she added bacon to them and maple-balsamic vinegar." I'm like, "Yeah. Why wouldn't you do that?"

Naomi Nakamura: Exactly. Well, on that note, how can people find you and connect with you?

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Well, thank you. Like you said, I'm most active on Instagram. My Instagram handle is @livewellwithJacqueline. And I definitely love to live in my DMs, so send me a message, say hello, because I love to connect with people there and get to know humans who are following me. I have small, but mighty crew on Instagram, as I say, and everybody who follows me, definitely is engaged. So I want to just inspire you, and people who follow me to feel that they have the confidence to get into the kitchen, maybe grab a new knife, grab a new cutting board, try a new protein or vegetable they haven't, and cook for themselves and feel good about it.

Naomi Nakamura: And your website?

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Yeah. Right now, it's doctobouley.com, doctor's spelled out, B-O-U-L-E-Y.

Naomi Nakamura: And I will have links to all of these in our show notes for this episode.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on, guys, just the time flew by.

Naomi Nakamura: I know. I was like, "Oh, I don't want to take up too much of our time."

Dr. Jacqueline ...: Oh, so, so good. Thank you. We could talk forever. There's so many things to discuss, and I love, love, love everything that we covered. Obviously, I talk a lot so I can talk about anything.

Naomi Nakamura: Well, thank you so much for joining.

Dr. Jacqueline ...: You're welcome. All right. Naomi, thank you so much.